reloading help...

[chris dawe]

I reload some rifle ammo ,but the scarcity of short shotgun ammo for my old guns is forcing me into the shotshell world.

On advice of the supplier I have on order some components for short ten's (ITX shot ) and 16's,and the appropriate manuals for 10,16 and ITX shot

the components are as follows

10 Federal hulls (trimmed )BPD 10 wad's,and 12 gauge filler wads ,#2 ITX shot

16 Fiocchi hull's, commander wads,7 1/2 magnum shot (both 10 and 16 will be roll crimped )

The powders and primers I have to buy seperately from another Canadian supplier who sells Hogden,Winchester and IMR powders

I've went through Petes gracious post on short ten loads,but couldn't find one that listed the component's I have,and as I haven't received my manuals yet my question is how critical are the exact component's to each load recipe? (as in cartridge loads )

And also ,what powder and primer combo would be a good compromise in both gauges ,as I'm trying to keep costs down

Thanks before hand for any help you guys can give me,

Chris

[Mark Ouellette]

Chris,

ITX is harder to load for our older guns because the ITX maker, Ballistics Products believed in high velocity. That philosophy usually mean higher pressure.

The load below is from BPI, at 10500 PSI which is only 500 PSI below the SAAMI maximum working pressure! You better make sure your old gun's barrels have plenty of wall thickness!

BPI L0AD#100907-2465-4/2/BB
HULL: FEDERAL 10ga. 2-7/8” (2.85”)
PRIMER: FED209A
PROPELLANT: HODGDON UNIVERSAL CLAYS 33.0 Grains
WAD: Helarco VP100
SHOT: 1-1/4 oz ITX #4 or #2, or BB (546gr.)
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: For over shot card use a COS12 or a N710 card.
Result: PSI 10500 FPS 1435

Other BPI loads include:
BPI L0AD#
HULL: FEDERAL 10ga. 2-7/8” (2.85”)
PRIMER: FED209A
PROPELLANT: PB 30.0 Grains
WAD: Helarco VP100
SHOT: 1-1/4 oz ITX #4 or #2, or BB (546gr.)
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: For over shot card use a COS12 or a N710 card.
Result: PSI 9500 FPS 1325

I have bought ITX but use it a little. Most of mine sits on the shelf because Nice Shot is so lethal and so much easier to load!

My favorite load for the Short Ten is:

HULL: *FEDERAL 10ga. *2-7/8” (2.85”) * *
PRIMER: FED209A*
PROPELLANT: Longshot 33.0 Grains*
WAD: *SP-10
SHOT: *1-3/8 oz Nice Shot*
BUFFER: *Mica*
ROLL CRIMP: *For over shot card use a COS12 or a N710 card. *
Result: PSI 8780 FPS 1335


There is also a new non-toxic American E-Shot
http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/New!_American_Shot.html

E-Shot looks good but I haven't tried it yet.

[Dave Suponski]

Chris, Send me your email and I will send you everything I have on Fiocchi 16 gauge loads.

[chris dawe]

Guys thanks so much for your help so far ,my current 10 is a N.I.D ,shes heavy enough

Dave PM sent.

Best,
Chris

[chris dawe]

So back to one of my original questions ...how critical (re: pressure ) is the use of the exact components (well,wads really) in a particular recipe?....sorry if I sound a little ignorant on this ,I still haven't received my manuals yet ,and I like to do things by the book.

Other than that ,the generosity of Pete Lester and Dave Suponski have me all set up !

[Mark Ouellette]

Chris,

Changing a component can change pressure very much! Follow the loading tables and do not substitute.

Mark

[Pete Lester]

So back to one of my original questions ...how critical (re: pressure ) is the use of the exact components (well,wads really) in a particular recipe?....sorry if I sound a little ignorant on this ,I still haven't received my manuals yet ,and I like to do things by the book.

Other than that ,the generosity of Pete Lester and Dave Suponski have me all set up !

Chris, I am a little more daring then some and will switch some components when advertised pressures of a known recipe are lower rather than higher. Case in point I would be comfortable using a Remington SP-10 in place of the Ballistic Product Wad (VP100) since they are very similar in construction and identical in capacity. The BPD was is a steel shot wad. It provides no shock absorber and is very tall. I believe it is a greater surface area in contact with the bore than the two wads above which may lead to higher pressure so I would not use it in lieu of the VP100.

I would also be inclined to back the powder off about 10% on that load using 33 gr of Universal Clays, not only is it high pressure but it's a screamer at 1435 fps.

Have fun with the Short Ten.

[Paul Harm]

Ballistic Products promotes mostly their products. That's why I don't usually buy from them. I feel they're over priced and all the reloading data I have doesn't include their products. Anyways, you may want to check the base wad in a Fed hull - it could be paper. Those have been known to come loose and lodge in the barrel. That's why I buy the Rem 10ga hulls [ from Precision Reloading ]. As far as changing components, most guys don't, especially if your load is near max pressures. Now if you're loading at low pressures, like I do, there's a little lee way. Win, Noble Sport, Cheddites, CCI, Rem primers are all medium primers where as Fed and CCI M's are hot primers. If your data calls for a medium primer and all you have is a hot one, then going down a full grain in charge is ok in IMHO. I have many reloading guides from the powder companies and any load is shown with about a 4gr spread depending on what velocity you want. The faster the load, the more pressure. So if you only have a load with high velocity you can always go down a couple of grains. Try em and look down the barrel to see how dirty it is. Too dirty and you're not burning all the powder. Also, you can always use fiber wads from www.circlefly.com - with a fiber wad pressure won't be higher - if anything lower. In rifle reloading, a tenth of a grain or two difference in powder makes a big difference where as in shotgun reloading a three tenth spread is a lot of times normal. Just about all powders can be loaded with a four grain spread [ not tenths ]. You have a bigger safety factor. Good luck - Paul

[Pete Lester]

WRT the Federal 10ga hull and the paper basewad coming loose. I think that worry is akin to worrying about shooting nitro powder loads in composite barrels, ie nothing to worry to about. The guys who reload the high pressure fast steel in 3.5" hulls are not worried about it, I am with them. FWIW hulls with paper/composite base wads will have lower pressures than hulls with plastic base wads.

I agree with Paul loading for shotguns does not require the same precision as metallic cartridge.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=118668

[Paul Harm]

Pete, I've read where the paper base wads have come loose and a blown barrel is the result and a lot of other reloading forums warn of this problem. With a SxS it's easy enough to check the barrels after every shot. The reason Federal shells [ in 12ga ] have lower pressures is because they're a straight walled case and have more volume than a tapered wall case like a Remington or Winchester. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but there are loads listed for you to use. It doesn't matter what size shot you use or what type - the bismuth, IXT, or lead, as long as you load the same weight as what's listed. Also, I believe Remington is the only one making a 10ga wad - the SP10. BPI may list it as theirs, but it's still a Remington SP10. So, using the type of shot you want and a Federal hull with the SP10 wad there should be many loads for you to chose from. Good luck - Paul

[Mark Ouellette]

The hardness of shot has a lot to do with pressure just as changing wads can change pressure. Everything is a spring (Young's Modulas) but some things less so.

Bismuth and Nice Shot are harder than lead and usually raise peak pressure. ITX is definately harder than Nice Shot and raises pressure even more, all else being equal. Steel and Hevi Shot are harder than ITX and...

BPI and Reloading Specialities make 10 gauge wads with steel being their intended payload. BPI provides loading data for 10 gauge wiht ITX and their wads. I have only found one BPI load like this for the short ten.

[Paul Harm]

I didn't know that IXT and bismuth would raise pressures - good to know. Thanks Mark.

[Pete Lester]

Pete, I've read where the paper base wads have come loose and a blown barrel is the result and a lot of other reloading forums warn of this problem. With a SxS it's easy enough to check the barrels after every shot.....Paul

I have read where shooting nitro powder loads through Damascus and Twist barrels can result in a blown barrel and missing fingers and eyes too :)

Still waiting to see definitive photographic evidence of a blown barrel as a result of a paper base wad coming loose because frankly I think it's impossible, the culprit has to be something else when that is blamed. Although a one time occurence I once pulled the trigger on an 870 only to watch a ton of confetti come out of the barrel. It was the result of not pushing (forgetting) a full piece of paper towel scrunched up tight and sprayed with gun oil all the way out of the barrel. No blown barrel, no bulge. My recall is the TV show Mythbusters had a hard time blowing a barrel with an obstruction when they tried.

Here is a video where a Remington barrel was fired with two inches of packed mud and no ill effect.

I think it is a wise practice to check one's barrels before firing but I do believe it takes a lot more than a paper base wad to create a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWl1Mu1tywM

[wayne goerres]

I am amazed it didnt at least bulg the barrel. May be the mud was to runney. Like sticking the muzzle in the water and pulling the trigger.

[Pete Lester]

The biggest no-no of shotgunning, a 12ga with a 20ga loaded shell stuck in the barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GguN4KyGQCM

[wayne goerres]

One thing about old guns is You cant always tell if it has been over strest in the past. IMHO a lot of guns let go because of metal fatique. Ithink if you try hard enough you can blow up anything.

[Paul Harm]

Pete, I don't know why you keep referring to nitro and damascus barrels - it has nothing to do with paper base wads getting stuck in barrels. All I was doing was relaying what has happened to others. If you don't want to believe it that's fine with me. One fellow said he was shooting skeet [ with a Berreta and reloaded Federals] and half way through a round he had a funny sounding shot. They examined the barrel and it had a slit about 6" long half way down the barrel. They found a Federal shell with the base wad missing. They didn't know what else to contribute it to. Do I think it's likely, no. Do I think it's possible - hell, anything is possible. Can damascus barrels be blown shooting nitro in them, yes - I've done it. 23 stitches latter I was ok. But that gun blew in the chamber - an overload. So could have a steel barrel with the load I had mistakenly made. I still shoot nitro in damascus barrel guns and shoot Federal shells for my black powder loads. I was just pointing out a possibility. Be sure of what powder is in your reloading bottle and look down the barrels after every shot.

[Pete Lester]

Pete, I don't know why you keep referring to nitro and damascus barrels - it has nothing to do with paper base wads getting stuck in barrels. All I was doing was relaying what has happened to others. If you don't want to believe it that's fine with me. One fellow said he was shooting skeet [ with a Berreta and reloaded Federals] and half way through a round he had a funny sounding shot. They examined the barrel and it had a slit about 6" long half way down the barrel. They found a Federal shell with the base wad missing. They didn't know what else to contribute it to. Do I think it's likely, no. Do I think it's possible - hell, anything is possible. Can damascus barrels be blown shooting nitro in them, yes - I've done it. 23 stitches latter I was ok. But that gun blew in the chamber - an overload. So could have a steel barrel with the load I had mistakenly made. I still shoot nitro in damascus barrel guns and shoot Federal shells for my black powder loads. I was just pointing out a possibility. Be sure of what powder is in your reloading bottle and look down the barrels after every shot.

My point is that loose base wads are not on my list of worries or concerns. I shoot my cut down Federal 10ga hulls until they split down the side or the crimp fingers blow off. I have never seen a base wad come loose and don't believe it could provide enough of an obstruction to create an over pressure condition capable of damaging a gun if it did, so I think the cautions on this are on the myth side of the scale. On the safe side I try to look through my barrels often but in a flurry of crows it is sometimes load and fire and load and fire.

Anybody remember the old Peter's Blue Magic shell?. Often times after multiple reloadings one would extract the brass head with a little bit of plastic hull attached. The majority went out the barrel and always with no ill effect.

In summary I think it takes a lot to blow a barrel provided the barrel has sufficiently thick walls. I recall your story of blowing a barrel, it sounded aweful and I am glad you survived. The pressures generated by that load must have been tremendous and if I recall correctly the gun withstood a few firings before the burst.

Accidents happen, to the best of people. Again good idea to check barrels to be sure they are clear but Federal 10ga base wad separation, I don't give it a second thought.