Doozy of a query! [Archive] - Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums

Sean Harper

12-09-2009, 01:39 PM

Greetings from the great state of Maine!
I have secretly been enjoying the website as well as the forums for a little while now. I feel I have finally finished my research and come to the point where I can ask educated questions. First; a bit of background information:

I came into possession of a Parker while I was cleaning out the basement for my Father-in-law. He had a stroke earlier this year, and is currently unable to care for his home and firearms. I was clearing off shelves that were packed with forty years of dust and odds and ends when I came across the gun. I knew that the gun was precious simply due to its obvious quality and the weight of the gun (both of my parents are hunters and trappers so I know what a “normal” side-by-side feels like). I was given the gun as payment for my work, this was a couple weeks ago.

The gun is heavily rusted, though the triggers pull and the hammers will engage. That is the extent of the guns moveable parts at this point. It appears to be frozen with rust as it is unable to break open. Looking at the gun though I notice no serious blemishes; some normal wear on the stock, and a small chip in the wood nearest the breech. The rust is evident. The markings are discernable though, and here is what I have been able to read on the exterior alone: The barrel is a plain twist. The serial number on the trigger guard is of question unfortunately (rust loved this gun). It either reads: 86961 or: 19698. First; I am not completely convinced the number one is actually there or if it is a rusted scratch (the more I look at it the more it looks indeed like the number one and thus belongs there). Second; I am not completely sure if I’ve read the numbers correctly due to the fact that they can be read both upside and down. If you position the gun so that the barrel is to your left it reads: (1)9698. With this number, 1880 would be the manufacture date. Which makes sense since it is marked with a patent date of 1878. Again; it will not break due to the rust. So I am unable to discern the grade.

This leads me to my queries. I am familiar with cleaning guns and shotguns for normal use, but I am totally lost at this level of repair. My sincere preference is to make this Parker my winter “project.” It is full winter up here, and one of the ways we get by is to have a small project to occupy ourselves as the snow flies. I would love to do the work myself, eventually getting it to firing quality. I already have an excellent Remington that I use for my hunting needs, but owning a Parker with the knowledge that it can fire would be excellent. I have no desire to sell it, only to get it looking better and hopefully firing quality.

I’m putting this out to all the wise-guys who are more experienced with Parkers. Any insight and wisdom you wish to impart would be greatly welcomed. Should I consult with a professional gunsmith? Is it important the gunsmith be educated on Parkers? I have been toying with the idea of sending it to a professional for reconditioning. The barrel’s measure 30 inches, what does this tell you? Can anyone discern the gauge? The choke measures 0.75 inches inside diameter using a digital caliper. Perhaps you folks have some idea’s or things I should know. Thank you so much for your knowledge and expertise!

sincerely, Sean

P.S. I'm currently taking pictures of the gun. They will be up shortly.

Robin Lewis

12-09-2009, 02:31 PM

ser # 19689 is listed as a 12ga under lifter with 30 inch twist barrels, grade 0 with a pistol grip stock.

Sean Harper

12-09-2009, 03:35 PM

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9705/cimg4398s.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/561/cimg4400q.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/6923/cimg4395.jpg

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4479/cimg4391.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7278/cimg4380.jpg

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8523/cimg4378.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/3559/cimg4377h.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5163/cimg4401.jpg

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/1391/cimg4376z.jpg

Ed Blake

12-09-2009, 04:14 PM

Sean Harper

12-09-2009, 04:15 PM

ser # 19689 is listed as a 12ga under lifter with 30 inch twist barrels, grade 0 with a pistol grip stock.

Thank you Robin! I'm afraid though that you are off a digit. The serial # clearly reads: (1)9698. Not as you have it at (1)9689. The number 8 is definately the final number.

I have not found direction with a grade of 0 on the Parker website... Any particulars on that grade?

Sean Harper

12-09-2009, 04:18 PM

Start with penetrating oil on the hinge, top lever, screws, etc. and let that soak in thoroughly. Try to open after a few hours. A good soaking of Hoppes should help loosen the external rust. I assume it's unloaded, but you never know until you can open the action.

Thank you Ed. I will certainly do that tomorrow. Any brand of penetrating oil you recommend? I have decided at long last that the complete restoration will absolutely be a job for a professional.

Ray Masciarella

12-09-2009, 04:37 PM

19698 is listed as a 10 ga with 30" barrels. Looks like a lot of work. You best get a price on the complete restoration before you do anything. Could be that it would cost more then the gun is worth. Ray

Jack Cronkhite

12-09-2009, 05:47 PM

Sean: There is a lot you can do. First off, do not touch the screws with anything but hollow ground tips. Wedge screw drivers bugger the heads very easily. I got into a rust bucket like this and am still playing. I purchased a set from Brownells (Magna super set plus the thin set) This was a good purchase.

After soaking enough to remove screws and get the wood off, you can soak parts and dismantle until all is disassembled.

A trick I learned off this site was to then soak all the metal in "Gunk" Heavy duty Rad cleaner.

I soaked everything for about a month.

Most the rust disappeared.

I then soaked the cleaned off metal for another month and the finer areas of rust pitting cleaned up although the pits are still there.

Good idea to have a competent gunsmith assess shootability.

My two bits worth - proper screw driver bits and "Gunk"

Regards,
Jack

Harry Collins

12-09-2009, 06:04 PM

Sean,

Lifter Parkers are a joy to shoot. By the looks of it not much money would change hands for the one you have. I know it is not for sale and I purchased one like it several years ago for about $850.00 and it is my sporting clay Parker as well as a great dove gun. What I am trying to get around to is that your original thought to have a winter projest is a solid one. You have received good advice on a bath of Hoppe's #9 and light work with 0000 steel wool on the surface rust. Any good penitrating oil would work well. Apply around where the barrels join the frame as well as the lifter button in front of the trigger guard bow. Let it sit for a day or so then try to push the lifter button up. A very light tap wih a small plastic hammer might break things loose if not add more penitrating oil and wait it out. I enjoy projects like the one you have undertaken.

Kindest, Harry

Richard Flanders

12-09-2009, 06:14 PM

You have some work ahead of you Sean. Keep the penetrating oil away from the wood as much as possible. I suspect it will free up eventually if you're patient. We have a saying on the forum here that when working on Parkers we try to "do no harm", which means being very patient, not forcing anything prematurely, and having the right screwdrivers such as the Brownell set mentioned. Just take your time and you'll likely have it open soon enough. I suspect it will take a lot of soaking to get the side lock plates off when the time comes. Keep us up on your progress; everyone here loves stories on projects like yours...

Sean Harper

12-09-2009, 11:21 PM

Thank you to all who have come to my aid! I have just put the first (of many I presume) coating of Gunk's. I have re-decided that this project will be my own. In truth, the gun is in excelent shape other than rust. The barells show no dents, not even a ding. I'm sure I will run in to something as I open her up. Besides, I'm the type that needs to know the guts of the thing first hand before I truly trust it.

Thank you especially Jack. I'll be buying those screwdrivers soon. And have no fear Harry and Richard; patience is one of my strong suit's.

Another thing though, are you all agreed that it is a 10 gauge? Am I correct in the serial number given the description of the gun?

Thanks again everyone for your enlightened sensibilities. I'll keep everyone closely informed as I progress.
Sean

Richard Flanders

12-09-2009, 11:45 PM

I think you can trust the 10ga call if they got the serial number right. The .75" muzzle measurement would support that also I think. When you get the serial number nice and cleaned off you can verify the call on gauge. You'll like the screwdrivers; they're indispensable for working on guns. Get the long and the short handle with them.

Jack Cronkhite

12-10-2009, 01:20 AM

Sean: Once you have the driver bits and as you are letting the penetrating oil work on screws, take time to clean out the screw slots of any rust, dirt, dried oil whatever might be in there. A good supply of toothpicks is useful. This is important as the driver bit needs to completely fill the full depth of the slot and side to side as well. The set you buy will have an exact fit and that is the one you need to find for each screw. Once at that point, apply minimal torque. If it doesn't budge, soak some more. It can be hard to avoid the temptation to reef on it just a bit, but that's when you slip and scratch or break a head off.
Post some pics of progress over time. Good luck.
Jack

todd allen

12-10-2009, 01:46 AM

Go slowly, and ask many questions.

Harry Collins

12-10-2009, 07:00 AM

Jack has some great advice on cleaning these old girls up. I had not thought of Gunk.

The gauge could very well be 10. My 1881 12 gauge has .752 bores with about .013 constriction in each barrel. That means that if I were to mic the muzzel it woud tead about .739. My 1881 10 gauge on the other hand has .802 bores with about .030 constriction in each barrel. At first I thought the gun had wide open chokes because I measured them as you have your Parker. A standard 10 gauge has .775 bores and my muzzel measurement was .772! While at the Souther Side by Side Championship several years ago Jent Mitchel measured my bores and revealed the truth. The 10 was a popular gauge back then and they are great fun to shoot. Please keep us up to date as your project continues.

Kindest, Harry

Jack Cronkhite

12-10-2009, 11:26 AM

Gotta give credit to Richard Flanders for the Gunk soak but I pass that on to anyone facing rust removal issues. I did pass on in the old site an interesting observation. I placed small parts or groups into individual small locking plastic bags and filled with Gunk and headed off for a month holiday. Upon return, all bags were full of rusty liquid. The forend latch had a delicate lacework of rust that almost duplicated the part floating above it, including the dished-out finger hole. I touched the bag and it all disintegrated. I kicked myself over that, as I had taken so many pics and that rusty lace would have been a neat image.

I didn't swab the gun with Gunk, rather immersed all metal into the liquid, including the barrels. By using small plastic bags and improvised plastic bag sleeve for the barrels, I was able to get by with a small jug of Gunk for the whole job.

The archive seems not to have all the pics in the Second Chance Gun thread. Here's a couple just to give you an idea.

Cheers,
Jack

Hammer group after finally getting the action dismantled
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/28884/normal_Parker_108603_001.jpg

Soaking in Gunk
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/28884/normal_Parker_108603_040.jpg

No pics yet of end result but will get to that some day. My New Year's Resolution will be to actually finish one project as opposed to having all sorts of things apart (not just guns) That will surprise my wife and even me

Cheers
Jack

Dean Romig

12-10-2009, 12:53 PM

Jack, those don't look too bad at all and should clean up nicely. I'm worried for the outside of the gun though and hope it isn't rust-etched.

Sean Harper

12-10-2009, 01:35 PM

I swear I'm enthralled by everyone here. Thank-you's just seem innadiquate.

Upon last evening's revelation that the work can be done by myself, a lot of progress has actually been made. I used Gunk's on the hinge, all bolts and screws, and on the fore end lever. This morning I tested the fore end lever with just finger-strength. It released and I was able to remove the grip plate. She still will not break, but removing that portion has enabled me to directly apply Gunk's to the hinge and cocking hook. I'm hoping this will help in loosening it up.

The serial number is stamped again on the underside of the grip plate. It clearly reads 19698. My previous consern about the serial number can now be put to bed.

I have decided that only finger strength will be used in dismantling the gun. When it comes to the finer screws and plates, I'll be very ginger. I'm tempted to use my finer woodworking tools. I have plastic pry's and small plastic hammers I use to seperate dovetailing and hinges from antique furnature. But have no fear gentlepeople, I shall refrain.:)

My questions at this point are simple. Now that the grip plate is off, is there any better way of removing the barreles? Is there a good way or a bad way? I'm very seriously considering purchasing Brownell's Rust Release for the soaking of all metal parts, post dismantaling. Evidently this product is superb when removing rust from antiques with delicate scroll and filigry. Any experience with this?

Big thanks to you Harry for your gauge post. I'm sure once the barels are removed and the grade is evident we can put this gauge mystery to bed. I have learned a lot from your post. Jack, your pictures are inspiring! I will take some pictures of my recent progress and post them shortly. Perhaps I should start a new post in the Restoration portion of the forum?

Thanks guys, more pictures very soon.
Sean

Richard Flanders

12-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Is the bottom release lever still frozen or can you push it in?

Sean Harper

12-10-2009, 03:58 PM

Is the bottom release lever still frozen or can you push it in?

Richard, the release lever figits just a bit. I push on it, and it will stick inside just a bit, then I have to pull it out. It has roughly a quarter of an inch of play before it sticks. In other words; it has some play but I suspect it is not going all the way inside that it can. I have really only just played with it a bit, just giving the penetrating oil time to digest. I have been loath to set the gun upright and use two hands to break it. At this point I've only had it upside down on the table while dispensing oil on the bottom letting it soak in that direction. I always make sure the oil coats the breach, all hinge points and the release lever. I'm of the mind to wait as long as needed. Thinking to myself that one day it will all magically fall into a beautiful parts-pile.:) Although if you and others are of the mind that it would be safe to be a bit more foreward with it, I suppose I can tinker just a bit more.

I just took more photo's of recent progress, they will be uploaded soon.

Sean

Bill Murphy

12-10-2009, 05:31 PM

Apparently the button linkage is free but the bolt is probably stuck somewhere, probably in the barrel lug slot. If it were my gun, I would run the button in as far as it will go, somehow hold it in place, and tap the button with a plastic or nylon hammer in an attempt to break the rust bond. I wouldn't tap too hard, but then it's not my gun.

Sean Harper

12-10-2009, 08:32 PM

Bill you smart fella, I just happened to test a very small plastic mallet on the lifter button. Just gently mind you. You were spot on. The lifter sank further than it had and the barrels came loose. Now comes slowly working out the screws and guts. Wish me luck.

There is a bit of a snag though folks. I simply cannot discern the grade. I'm looking for the applicable letter on the watertable but alas to no avail. I only see two things on the entire watertable: the serial number, and the pattent date (Mar. 16. 1875). The Parker website has the watertable as the spot to find the grade. Where is it? Can it be determined using other methods?

Further, I have been able to find the weight of the barrels (4 and then 14 just above the first 4). And, the frame size is listed as 02. What does this tell me?

Also, there is a very small set of letters on the latch that catches the barrels as it is set to fire (tiny letters just opposite the digits for frame size). They are quite small but they apear to read: J.S. Any ideas?

There is also more letters I need some direction on. Two T's encircled. TT. Also, there is a letter F just beyond the TT. Further; there is a very small P that is framed with a diamond shape. This is stamped just above and to the left of the extractor tip, located on the underside of the right side barrel. What do these mean?

I have included more links to pictures I have taken, I'm getting better at taking them. I still have not found any issues with the gun other than rust. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, but it hasn't yet. Now looking at the barrels and fore end and hinges; everything looks like just a rusty gun.

Thank you all again for your wisdom! Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated!

Sean

http://yfrog.com/jncimg4422j
http://yfrog.com/0mcimg4421j
http://yfrog.com/0mcimg4419tj
http://yfrog.com/jlcimg4418j
http://yfrog.com/jncimg4417j
http://yfrog.com/jlcimg4415j

Austin W Hogan

12-10-2009, 08:57 PM

Sean; Several years ago I recieved some
thoroughly rusted low number Springfields to restore for our local honor guard. I made a metal box and soaked the guns in kerosene for a month or two, which softened the rust. It is difficult to remove a Parker stock without opening the action. I would suggest that you find a container, perhaps a 4 or 6 inch pipe that will allow the barrel and frame to be immersed in kero, without submerging the stock. Remove the fore end, rest the muzzle in the bottom and fill with kero to 1/4 inch below the wood. You might try putting a little penetrating oil into the seams before immersion.
Does the lifter button move 1/2 inch? that is necessary to fully unlock the barrel.

A proper tap with a rubber mallet may do the trick, but a common rust bond between two metal pieces may be as strong as a weld. Softening the rust may prevent barrel metal from adhering to the frame, or the reverse, when separating the parts.

Best, Austin

Dean Romig

12-10-2009, 09:34 PM

the 4 14 indicates the unstruck barrel weight of 4 lbs., 14 oz.

The JS is the barrel maker's stamp for Jonathan (or John) Stokes.

The small P in the diamond may be an indication of barrels made by Parker Bros. rather than the customary imported barrels.

A Parker lifter with Twist or Plain Twist barrels is usually a grade 0 or a grade 1.

Charlie

12-10-2009, 10:18 PM

Sean Harper

12-11-2009, 10:56 AM

Sean: Welcome to the club, you'll soon be a Parker restoration expert. Your serial 19698 is found in the Parker records as a 10 gauge, capped pistol grip, with 30" PT (Plain Twist) barrels, quality 0 (zero). (That is the least expensive grade.) It is one of six identical guns, serials 19696 thru 19701. I think this means that it was made in a batch of guns for inventory or for some big distributor's order -- as opposed to being specially made for an individual. A PGCA research letter should tell who bought it. Hope you can get the gun restored to your satisfaction. Charlie Price

Charlie, You're my new hero! Thank you for all the informaion. You have been an amazing aid. I knew the gun mustn't have been a speacial order as it is very simple in appearance. I will most certainly be requesting a research letter soon. Thank you greatly!

Sean

Sean Harper

12-13-2009, 03:06 PM

A big thanks to everyone that has helped to educate me on my Parker! I have learned so much and certainly could not have done anything without you wiseguys. This thread is getting a bit long in the tooth so I'll be opening up a new one in the restoration forum.

I just have one last issue I need assistance with. I have removed every available screw from the stock and now I am ready to pull the hinge and bottom plate off. This is a lifter so the bottom plate is stuck on it. And, the crown of the metal on top is protruding just right to inhibit removal. So, what I have now is an almost dissasembled stock with the triggers and hinge plate wobbling around. How do I procede? Have I missed anything? I hope you can tell by the picture what a state I am in. I am so close! Anyone dissasembled one of these before?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sean

http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/1345/cimg4436l.jpg (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/cimg4436l.jpg/)

Harry Collins

12-13-2009, 03:45 PM

Sean,

It has been a while. If you push the lifter up a little you will see the linkage between the stock and the receiver move. There is a small screw that connects the lifter to the locking bar. It will be on the left side as I remember. Unscrew that small screw and things should come apart.

Harry

PS: Austin is the "WIZARD" on lifters.

David Hamilton

12-13-2009, 08:23 PM

Your gun is not a "0" grade. There is no engraving on a "0". Yours is a higher grade. David

Sean Harper

12-15-2009, 02:14 PM

What an incredible experience! Well folks, with your help I have dismantled my 1880 Lifter 10 gauge and now the stock and fore end are raw wood. It is amazing to me that at the beginning of this thread I had assumed the restoration of my parker was beyond me. I could not have done this alone mind you. A big thanks goes to Richard especially who walked me through my first exposure to side locks and the internals of this gun.

I have many more questions and am in need of further assistance. But I will be opening up a new thread in the restorations forum. Questions like weather or not to remove the sheild as I refinish the stock, should I refinish and re-tool the checkering (I'm a woodworker by trade, so I'm confident in my skills). These questions and others will come up in the new thread. Especially David's notion that the gun may not be a grade 0, in fact being a possible higher grade.

Again, thank you to everyone that has helped! I couldn't have done this without you.

new thread:http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?p=9213#post9213

John McKee

12-15-2009, 02:56 PM

Sean Harper

12-15-2009, 04:04 PM

I'm fascinated by the whole experience you've had. :corn:

I've got to ask though: In antique furniture; refinishing is now a bad word. Unless the furniture is completely missing it's original finish. In your case; I'm assuming that some finish is there, underneath the mold and grime.

Do you refinish or not? And what criteria is used to decide. In furniture; a really good piece of furniture is worth more in a un-refinished, original state. I'd assume if there's some patina to this old gunstock; it should be cleaned and oiled? I don't know. But I'd love to hear from the guys here on that. And obviously has been a topic before:

John, when I refinish an old piece for a customer I always go by the following criteria: Is the goal of the owner to refinish for resale. Is the owner treating it as an heirloom for their estate. Just those two choices, simple. If they are putting the piece up for auction then I will treat it with delicate hands. Usually this means I simply clean the piece thuroughly with a low-grade de-greaser and repair the hardware (if it has hardware) and repair any damage to the wood. If the piece is not going to be sold and the owner simply wants the item to last another couple hundred years, then my options open up. I have done everything from completely resanding the piece down a thirty-second of an inch all around and applying a strong varnish (in the case of a birdseye maple endtable where the owner wanted to see the pocks clearly); to very simply stripping the piece and applying a new surface agent.

So, delicacy and education is needed if the piece has re-sale value and/or historical significance. But really most folks I meet just want their old family treasure to be safe for years to come.

In the case of my gun, I've never done a gunstock before. Having said that, it is clear to me what my options are with the wood. I've worked on wood of the same era so I'm very familiar with the process. What is NOT clear to me is what my heart is telling me. This will be the key to this project. My heart will dictate how far I go. I will not be selling the gun, and it does not have significant historical value. So, I know that the gun is special only to me. I am my own customer. My heart wants desperately to strip it down completely to let the wood show more dramatically. But I have held off here. I may feel that I will clean it as best I can and then put a mild preservative and light finish on it. I'm leaning toward deep cleaning with a light finish or even just a simple cleaning then waxing.

What I do know for sure, is that the stock in two places has a hair-line crack. Only about an inch long. Those need attention. Also, I want the gun to be safe to fire. So no matter what I do to the body of the stock, I will be treating the area where the hinge mounts to the stock with a wood hardener. I use an excellent product that is safe for any wood. I'll be using it in the crevises of the stock where the side plates meet the wood and especially the fore end grip, that part is pretty thin and slightly punky in parts.

So I suppose in this case I am driven by my heart and love of the item. I don't really care if my work on the stock is true to some arbitrary law dictating what it "should" be. Though I know for a fact that the Parker-purists out there are very forgiving and really only want the gun to last as a part of American history and folklore. I'm sure anything I do to it will have their support as long as it doesn't destroy the physical action and properties of the gun and as long as the focus of my restoration is to preserve and protect.

I'll keep you very closely informed with every step I take in my other post in the restoration forum.

Thank you for your interest!
Sean