Early 20th Century Powder Question?

[Ed Blake]

Are there any modern equivalents to Dense Smokeless?

[Mike of the Mountain]

From what I know, dense smokeless was made to be measured like black powder. That said, maybe a black powder substitute such as Pioneer powder? I wouldn’t bother with it.

I was thinking bulk smokeless, not dense smokeless. Drew is 100% correct. That would not end well.

[Drew Hause]

OH NO MIKE!!!!
Bulk Smokeless was measured by volume and early on the volume was the same a black powder. That changed with 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. Bulk powders
Dense was ONLY to be measured by grains/weight.



A 3 Dr. Eq. (Dram Equivalent) load of “E.C.” No. 1 or “Schultze” was 42 grains by weight. 3 Dr. Eq. of Dense Smokeless Ballistite was 24 grains; Infallible 22 grains. The pressure of a 3 Dram (82 grains by volume) load of Black Powder with 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps is about 5000 psi. The pressure of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi; 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

Substituting a Dense Smokeless powder for Black or Bulk Smokeless powder would double the charge. It has been estimated that 50 grains of Infallible or Unique could reach 30,000 psi.

[Drew Hause]

Ed: interestingly Laflin & Rand's Unique and Infallible were made from the same formula, the only difference being the granulation. Both were reformulated over the years.
Hercules promoted Red Dot as a replacement for Infallible, but continued to manufacture Infallible (later by Alliant).

Nobel's Ballistite for shotshells was discontinued (in the U.S.) in the late 1920s.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Originally Posted by Drew Hause

OH NO MIKE!!!!
Bulk Smokeless was measured by volume and early on the volume was the same a black powder. That changed with 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. Bulk powders
Dense was ONLY to be measured by grains/weight.



A 3 Dr. Eq. (Dram Equivalent) load of “E.C.” No. 1 or “Schultze” was 42 grains by weight. 3 Dr. Eq. of Dense Smokeless Ballistite was 24 grains; Infallible 22 grains. The pressure of a 3 Dram (82 grains by volume) load of Black Powder with 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps is about 5000 psi. The pressure of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi; 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

Substituting a Dense Smokeless powder for Black or Bulk Smokeless powder would double the charge. It has been estimated that 50 grains of Infallible or Unique could reach 30,000 psi.

I was thinking dense was bulk. My bad. I still wouldn’t bother with it.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Funny thing is I’m in the midst of reading Askins book on “Modern Shotguns and Loads” and he has chapters devoted to powders and loads and patterns and……

[Stan Hoover]

Originally Posted by Mike Koneski

Funny thing is I’m in the midst of reading Askins book on “Modern Shotguns and Loads” and he has chapters devoted to powders and loads and patterns and……

If Charles mentions his 16 gauge Ithaca

[Big D]

Here's the old powder. Sorry about the rotation
Tried to resize it, but...

[Mike of the Mountain]

Here ya go.

FFg black powder?

[Researcher]

1Fg would be black powder.

Black powder is classified by granulation size, with 1F being the coarsest and 4F the finest, used for different firearms and applications.

Some DuPont Bulk items --

Bulk Powder folder cover.jpg

Bulk Powder folder inside.jpg

Bulk Smokeless Tin.jpg