Kent Bismuth in 12 gauge Trojan

[King Cobb]

Originally Posted by Tom Flanigan

Many of the old boys such as Elmer Keith talked of heavy loads and long shots. Elmer used his Ithaca 3 1/2 inch ten bore to take geese to 80 yards. I've read most of their stuff including Askins who was Elmer's mentor. But I never shoot over 50 yards, never ever. And I never let the opinions of others become my opinions, even the likes of Askins and Keith who I truly enjoy reading. My comments are based solely on my personaL experience. I read what they had to say and then find out for myself. I have shot countless patterns and extensively shot all types of game for 55 years. My opinions are my own based on my actual experiences and testing. I am careful to preface my statements with "in my opinion". It's just that, my opinion. Others are free to read my posts and disagree. Thats what it's all about. Nobody would question the experience of Jack O'Connor or Elmer Keith. But both of those gentlemen disagreed on most everything. Jack O'Connor touted the .270 for elk and moose. Elmer Keith said anyone who hunted elk or moose with a .270 was a damn fool. My own experience taking moose with the .270 convinced me that Jack was right and Elmer was wrong. But my opinion is based on my experience, not the words of either gentlemen.

Who needs a .270? I know a grandmother in my town who has taken 3 elk with a .257 bob.

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Tom Flanigan

Many of the old boys such as Elmer Keith talked of heavy loads and long shots. Elmer used his Ithaca 3 1/2 inch ten bore to take geese to 80 yards. I've read most of their stuff including Askins who was Elmer's mentor. But I never shoot over 50 yards, never ever. And I never let the opinions of others become my opinions, even the likes of Askins and Keith who I truly enjoy reading. …....

I'm pretty sure the Askins mentioned in the quote is Askins Jr, not the senior Askins who was the noted shotgun expert. Anyone interested in shooting vintage shotguns should get a copy of Modern Shotguns and Loads by Capt Charles Askins (senior) that was originally published in 1929. The book and its reprint are generally available on Ebay etc. You'll be absolutely flabbergasted by the Cap's extensive detail in this book, to include the pellet counts and efficiencies derived from hundreds of objective patterning tests of all gauges, and at ranges up to 60+ yards for ducking loads. He wasn't one to come up with opinions without having extensive data to back them up.


Back to the very first question by the original poster, regarding the Kent 12 ga/2-3/4-inch load with 1-1/4 ounce of its new Bismuth shot. Speed was cited at 1325 which is on par with the our familiar American 12-gauge "high brass" load of lead shot. It might be good for anyone interested to check with Kent or other sources to determine where that velocity was measured, i.e., at 3 ft as typical with American shotshells, or at the muzzle (or back calculated to the muzzle) as often done on foreign made shells? Indeed if the latter, that 1325 would be more like 1250 or so per the American protocol.

[Craig Larter]

I have been hunting ducks for decades going back to the lead days. In my experience the best load I have ever shot for ducks is 1 3/8oz Kent TM at 1350fps at over 10000psi. Just for my own concern for my vintage doubles I have developed a 1 1/4oz TM load at 1200fps at less than 6000psi for late season mallards and blacks. I figure why take a chance shooting hot loads. That being said I have shot hundreds of ducks with 1 1/8oz of bismuth. Most important in duck hunting is having a well trained retriever.

[William Davis]

While I believe in mild loads Bismuth is not a dense as lead and looses velocity faster, may be a point for higher initial velocity. Having said that Vintage SXS Gun always better to shoot lower recoil and no doubt low recoil facilities hits.

William

[Drew Hause]

Turn-of-the-century Live Bird loads were usually 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dram Eq., or more; Sporting Life, Dec. 4 1897
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL3011024.pdf
J.D. Gay...used a Parker gun, 4 drams Hazard “Blue Ribbon” (Bulk) smokeless, in Leader shells, a Winchester factory load.

In the 1927 Western Cartridge Co. advertising flyer for the "Super-X Long Range Load" by Capt. Chas. Askins, the 12 Gauge Duck Load is described as 1 1/4 oz. with 3-1/2 Drams (Dupont Oval) with a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps (modern numbers are measured 3 feet from the muzzle and would be about 1330 fps) and a breech pressure of 3-3/4 tons or just below the current SAAMI 12g maximum of 11,500 psi.

And a steady diet thereof in a 100 year old gun may do this





So it would seem reasonable to be proactive and glasbed or reinforce the head of the stock in some way before using boomer loads

Staple and fresh acraglas



or the Parker "dumb-bell" wood insert courtesy of Dean

[Tom Flanigan]

So it would seem reasonable to be proactive and glasbed or reinforce the head of the stock in some way before using boomer loads

Yes, I would agree that that would solve the problem. I have sometimes relieved a sliver of wood from behind the lock plates of L.C. Smith guns and reinforced with acra-glas. It's solves the cracking problem so common on these guns. I like to get to them before they start to crack. Wood can be relieved in the stock head of Parkers and reinforced with acra-glas also but I have never done that with a gun that wasn't already cracked. My solution is to never use boomer loads since, in my opinion, nothing is to be gained but heavy recoil.


Many times a crack such as you have shown in the pictures does not show on the exterior for some time. I have taken Parkers apart that seemed ok until the stock head was exposed. I hate to see this. It's not a hard fix and its a permanent one, but its better to use sensible loads to prevent further cracking or any cracking in the first place.

[Tom Flanigan]

I load my own Bismuth loads at 1200 fps. Actually, my tests of the +1300 loads vs 1200 was with lead way before lead was banned in Canada. I've never used coppered shot. The "old pigeon load" I refer to is the general pigeon load of years ago of 1 1/4 oz of shot and around 1200 fps. It does not refer to any "pigeon load" of current vintage. Pigeon load as I use the term is an old term I picked up long ago from the old timers in my home town of Pawling, NY. Some of those old boys shot flyers back in the day.

[Tom Flanigan]

The first sentence in my post above was written by Drew. I guess I screwed up the quote notification attributing it to him.

[Tom Flanigan]

A .257 Roberts in the hands of a cool and experienced shot is likely a better elk killer than a 7mm magnum in the hands of the typical weekend tyro who, because of the excessive recoil, doesn't properly sight in his gun or practice to efficiency.

The .257 Roberts is one of the classic great cartridges of the past, just as effective today as it ever was. They are a pleasure to shoot.

[Scott Chapman]

So my take away from this thread thus far:

1. My Trojan in good shape should be fine to shoot the Kent Bismuth shells. They might kick a little more than the RST shells (of which I shot the 2 3/4" pheasant variety through this gun and they performed admirably on brant in Mexico earlier this year).

The son who was wanting to use this gun is 5' 10" and 175 pounds, plays football and has shot with 4-H trap and skeet since he was old enough to shoulder a reduced length Beretta 20 gauge autoloader. Recoil probably will not be as bad a those "hypersonic" 3" 1700 fps shells that he was shooting through his Beretta. (Those shells will rattle your fillings!)

2. A steady diet of "boomer" loads might cause damage to stock head if oil soaked or weakened due to age.

(Thank you Mr. Flanigan! The word "Boomer" makes most Texans cringe because down here it is associated with the University of Oklahoma who is a nemesis to both the University of Texas in Austin and my alma mater, Texas A&M.)

I would not want to be caught dead using a "boomer" load.

I fear the cost of a preemptive repair would probably exceed the $800 have in the gun, but it is something for consideration.

3. Handloading Bismuth is probably the best way to provide adequate hunting ammo in the long run.

4. Elmer Keith didn't like either Captain or Colonel Askins because they didn't use enough gun...or maybe that was Ruark?? I am confused but as long as I don't shoot at 80 yards I'll be fine.

Thanks to all!