PARKER BHE TRAP GUN OR LIVE PIGEON GUN?

[Bill Burwash]

The Parker letter states that my BHE was started in Nov 1905 and completed in Feb 1906. It has 32" steel barrels with 2 3/4" chambers, F&X chokes, double triggers, ejectors, no safety, Monte Carlo comb with straight English style grip, checkered butt and weighs 7 lbs 11 oz. More details are given in the companion thread titled Parker BHE Engraving Styles.
My question is whether this gun was intended for live pigeons or clay (trap) shooting. I look forward to your comments.

[Reggie Bishop]

Yes would be my answer. To both.

[Jim DiSpagno]

As Reggie stated, both as live bird shooting was on the decline in the US, trap shooting at clay targets was on the rise at the time this wonderful gun was made.

[Dave Noreen]

The first Grand American Handicap at clay targets was in 1900. The last Grand American Handicap at live birds was in 1902. The International Flyer Championship was held at Kansas City 1917 to 1941. Your BHE certainly could have been used for either.

[Drew Hause]

Bill: did the letter document who originally ordered the gun? If so, we could investigate if he was a well-known shooter.

[Bill Burwash]

Bill: did the letter document who originally ordered the gun? If so, we could investigate if he was a well-known shooter.

The gun was made for Isaac Pitbaldo of Winnipeg Manitoba. However, the gun was sent to Marshall Wells Hardware in Duluth MN. Mr Pitbaldo must have travelled to Duluth for business, or maybe shooting, and took the gun back home.
The Parker letter says that the gun order was taken Mr Du Bray who was a senior salesman for Parker as well as a world class pigeon and trap shooter.
I'm not aware whether there was a tie between Messrs Du Bray and Pitbaldo or not.
Mr Pitbaldo was a well established lawyer and keen sportsman and a member of a waterfowling club in the famous Delta Marsh northwest of Winnipeg. He and his son were part of a group that founded Ducks Unlimited around 1937.
Thanks for volunteering to do some research.
Bill

[Reggie Bishop]

You own an interesting Parker! Very nice!

[todd allen]

That fits the description and qualifications of a pigeon gun.
As for the Golden Age of pigeon shooting, I feel like I lived it. The vast majority of my experience has been Perazzi, but I blocked out periods that were dedicated to the Parker Brothers purpose built target guns.
During this period, I entered a few sporting clays shoots with these guns.
I was a registered AA shooter, so I would sign in into the Hunter Class as Arthur du Bray.
One particular shoot I tied with a Master Class shooter from Utah, who knew me quite well. The chatter at the clubhouse was mostly about "Who is this duBray guy?" I was shooting a 1874 250 Grade Underlifter.
There was a bunch of pointing and elbow jabbing when the gallery saw me show up with an ancient hammer gun for a shoot-off against one of our top SC shooters.
I could tell a lot of stories about shooting various dedicated competition guns from Parker against all comers in pigeon games.
It's been my experience that the single sight plane guns hold an advantage in many target games, especially with the long complicated presentations in SCs, but the SxSs hold up well in the box bird games.

[todd allen]

The Parker letter states that my BHE was started in Nov 1905 and completed in Feb 1906. It has 32" steel barrels with 2 3/4" chambers, F&X chokes, double triggers, ejectors, no safety, Monte Carlo comb with straight English style grip, checkered butt and weighs 7 lbs 11 oz. More details are given in the companion thread titled Parker BHE Engraving Styles.
My question is whether this gun was intended for live pigeons or clay (trap) shooting. I look forward to your comments.

I would really love to see some pictures of this one.

[Drew Hause]

Apparently more interested in golf & curling
https://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/people/pitblado_i.shtml

No hits in the Sporting Life archives which reported major Canadian trap shoots.

He was friends with Dan Bain, who won the The Dominion of Canada Trap Shooting Championship in Toronto in 1903

Live Pigeon competitions became much less popular in Great Britain and Canada after the 1900 Paris Olympic Games, but I couldn't find a date when they were outlawed by legislation.

[CraigThompson]

That fits the description and qualifications of a pigeon gun.
As for the Golden Age of pigeon shooting, I feel like I lived it. The vast majority of my experience has been Perazzi, but I blocked out periods that were dedicated to the Parker Brothers purpose built target guns.
During this period, I entered a few sporting clays shoots with these guns.
I was a registered AA shooter, so I would sign in into the Hunter Class as Arthur du Bray.
One particular shoot I tied with a Master Class shooter from Utah, who knew me quite well. The chatter at the clubhouse was mostly about "Who is this duBray guy?" I was shooting a 1874 250 Grade Underlifter.
There was a bunch of pointing and elbow jabbing when the gallery saw me show up with an ancient hammer gun for a shoot-off against one of our top SC shooters.
I could tell a lot of stories about shooting various dedicated competition guns from Parker against all comers in pigeon games.
It's been my experience that the single sight plane guns hold an advantage in many target games, especially with the long complicated presentations in SCs, but the SxSs hold up well in the box bird games.

I’ve not been in the pigeon ring games for more than 5 or 6 years , but I’ve never fired at a pigeon be it Colombaire or boxbirds with anything but a Parker same can be said for boxbird quail . I have a Peruvian friend that goes to the kings cup each year and he keeps telling me a 32” guns to long for Colombaire he may be correct but over the years all but two races have been shot with tight choked 32” guns and the other two were shot with a 30” gun .

[John Davis]

Manitoba was part of DuBray’s territory. You’ll find in Parkers in Pulp where he made a number of business trips there and enjoyed the hunting as well. No doubt the order was placed on one of those visits.

[Daryl Corona]

I preferred 28" for Columbaire and 30" for box birds for the simple reason I could move them quicker to the bird.

[Bill Burwash]

I would really love to see some pictures of this one.

There are a number of pic and a long interesting discussion on this gun in a companion thread titled Parker BHE Engraving Patterns. The thread is about 6 down from this thread.

[Bill Burwash]

Apparently more interested in golf & curling
https://www.mhs.mb.ca/docs/people/pitblado_i.shtml

No hits in the Sporting Life archives which reported major Canadian trap shoots.

He was friends with Dan Bain, who won the The Dominion of Canada Trap Shooting Championship in Toronto in 1903

Live Pigeon competitions became much less popular in Great Britain and Canada after the 1900 Paris Olympic Games, but I couldn't find a date when they were outlawed by legislation.

Thanks, Drew. Looks like Mr Pitbaldo was associated with trap shooting to some extent.

[Bill Burwash]

Manitoba was part of DuBray’s territory. You’ll find in Parkers in Pulp where he made a number of business trips there and enjoyed the hunting as well. No doubt the order was placed on one of those visits.
Thanks. Very interesting. DuBray sure covered a lot of territory. Winnipeg was a small town back in the 1900's and I can't image he sold many Parkers.

[Bill Burwash]

Interesting that there is still a number of pigeon shooters in this modern day and shooting vintage guns. Congratulations.
My pigeon shooting has been confined to the barnyard type. Except for 3 trips to Argentina for doves and pigeons. Back then you were limited to 200 pigeons per person per day---that has been reduced in the past few years to 100 or maybe less. There was no limit on doves. I rented guns from the outfitter as bring guns from Canada to Argentina in a pain.

[CraigThompson]

Interesting that there is still a number of pigeon shooters in this modern day and shooting vintage guns. Congratulations.
My pigeon shooting has been confined to the barnyard type. Except for 3 trips to Argentina for doves and pigeons. Back then you were limited to 200 pigeons per person per day---that has been reduced in the past few years to 100 or maybe less. There was no limit on doves. I rented guns from the outfitter as bring guns from Canada to Argentina in a pain.

Nothing wrong with shooting pigeons in the barnyard ! In Argentina in my one trip I enjoyed shooting the pigeons more than the dove . But when I comes to shotgun shooting games hands down I’ll take Colombaire first boxbirds second over any of the clay target games .

[Bill Burwash]

All of my shooting partners in Argentina preferred pigeons over doves as well.
I've never had the opportunity to shoot competitive pigeons. But have shot a ton of clay targets.

[CraigThompson]

All of my shooting partners in Argentina preferred pigeons over doves as well.
I've never had the opportunity to shoot competitive pigeons. But have shot a ton of clay targets.

Forty years ago I wanted to get an invitation to one of the decent sized box bird shoots . At that time you needed to know someone to get an invite . Anyway the people I knew that did it told me I’d be broke in a year shooting pigeons competitively so I didn’t get to try it until perhaps six years ago . And yeah I now u der stand what they meant about entry fees at the larger boxbird shoots or Colombaire for that matter . The place I normally do this is typically no more than $400 a day for 15 birds . Where as a big boxbird shoot in PA or GA or TX might set you back $3k a day if you play all the options .

[Bill Murphy]

In most box bird or Columbaire shoots, the purse is mandatory except for juniors or ladies. Often senior shooters don't have to play the purse either. You must read the program to find out what you must play.

[Bill Burwash]

Forty years ago I wanted to get an invitation to one of the decent sized box bird shoots . At that time you needed to know someone to get an invite . Anyway the people I knew that did it told me I’d be broke in a year shooting pigeons competitively so I didn’t get to try it until perhaps six years ago . And yeah I now u der stand what they meant about entry fees at the larger boxbird shoots or Colombaire for that matter . The place I normally do this is typically no more than $400 a day for 15 birds . Where as a big boxbird shoot in PA or GA or TX might set you back $3k a day if you play all the options .

Thanks for the info. The price of having fun is getting pricey. High end pheasant lodges charge upwards of $2000 per day. And, sheep hunting is crazy expensive---I got my 2 sheep years ago, thank goodness.
At this point in my life, I'm content shooting a bit of trap and sporting clays.

[CraigThompson]

Thanks for the info. The price of having fun is getting pricey. High end pheasant lodges charge upwards of $2000 per day. And, sheep hunting is crazy expensive---I got my 2 sheep years ago, thank goodness.
At this point in my life, I'm content shooting a bit of trap and sporting clays.

Bear in mind when I say big boxbird shoots are 3k a day that’s if you play all the gambling options . Generally (I think) you can get in the race and main prize money for 1k or less and the rest is optional gambling on yourself .

[CraigThompson]

I’m going to a boxbird quail shoot this coming Saturday . Four races of five birds each with payouts per race and HOA total cost with tip for the bid boy will be $350 and of course I’ll bring home some birds for consumption .

[Bill Burwash]

I’m going to a boxbird quail shoot this coming Saturday . Four races of five birds each with payouts per race and HOA total cost with tip for the bid boy will be $350 and of course I’ll bring home some birds for consumption .

Sounds reasonable to me.
Let us know how it goes. Sounds exciting. Shooting a Parker?

[John Davis]

I’m going to a boxbird quail shoot this coming Saturday . Four races of five birds each with payouts per race and HOA total cost with tip for the bid boy will be $350 and of course I’ll bring home some birds for consumption .

Craig, what dimensions do they use for box bird quail ring? And how many boxes?

[CraigThompson]

Sounds reasonable to me.
Let us know how it goes. Sounds exciting. Shooting a Parker?

I went to one a couple weeks ago and came home with 42 birds most of the shooters don’t wanna fool with cleaning the birds . Only 12 gauge gun I own is a Parker so not much choice . The rule is no handloads and all I’ve got now are 10’s one 8 and the one 12 . I could use the 10’s if RST were selling 10’s and then I’d have another choice besides Parker’s .

[CraigThompson]

Craig, what dimensions do they use for box bird quail ring? And how many boxes?

He uses the same boxes he uses for pigeons . If my memory serves it nine boxes John . Are you by chance contemplating a ring at the “Davis Sportsman’s Club” ?

[todd allen]

Bear in mind when I say big boxbird shoots are 3k a day that’s if you play all the gambling options . Generally (I think) you can get in the race and main prize money for 1k or less and the rest is optional gambling on yourself .
The better you shoot, the cheaper the shooting.
What I've seen, is if you can maintain a 26-28/30 average, your shooting costs are very low.
BTW, the formula that we strived for, begins with an 85% first barrel kill rate. 90% is better.
And always play the money, because learning to shoot for money is part of the practice.
You have two jobs. Train with your gun, and then train your mind.
Winning shoots requires an incredible mental game.
I have been trained and coached by some incredible people, and should probably write a book.

[Daryl Corona]

You're correct Todd, playing the money is the only way to learn. I was fortunate to be helped and tutored by one of the best, Charlie Miller. One of the best I ever saw shoot live birds.

[todd allen]

My mentor in the game was John Sands.
My introduction to pigeons, and lifelong friend was PGCA member Chuck Altenburg.

[John Davis]

He uses the same boxes he uses for pigeons . If my memory serves it nine boxes John . Are you by chance contemplating a ring at the “Davis Sportsman’s Club” ?

Always contemplating. Quail would be much easier to acquire than pigeons. And I have the box traps I got from Murphy several years ago. What’s the rise? 18 yards? 30 yards?

[CraigThompson]

Always contemplating. Quail would be much easier to acquire than pigeons. And I have the box traps I got from Murphy several years ago. What’s the rise? 18 yards? 30 yards?

Where I shoot we start at 32 yards after three straight step back a yard .

[CraigThompson]

The better you shoot, the cheaper the shooting.
What I've seen, is if you can maintain a 26-28/30 average, your shooting costs are very low.
BTW, the formula that we strived for, begins with an 85% first barrel kill rate. 90% is better.
And always play the money, because learning to shoot for money is part of the practice.
You have two jobs. Train with your gun, and then train your mind.
Winning shoots requires an incredible mental game.
I have been trained and coached by some incredible people, and should probably write a book.

I’d love to go to Madrid for the Kings Cup once just so I could say I had and had shot there . I’ve never done a shoot that was thirty birds box or Colombaire it’s always been 15 or 20 .

[Bill Burwash]

I’d love to go to Madrid for the Kings Cup once just so I could say I had and had shot there . I’ve never done a shoot that was thirty birds box or Colombaire it’s always been 15 or 20 .

Sure sounds like fun.
You are right on about the mental game when shooting. Years ago I shot serious skeet competition and you can't win without really a really good mental game. I can assure you I was nervous when shooting the US Open many years ago

[John Davis]

I have found in trap that once you have the basics down and your fundamentals are solid, then it’s 99% mental.

[Daryl Corona]

I have found in trap that once you have the basics down and your fundamentals are solid, then it’s 99% mental.

It's like that in any sport John.

[CraigThompson]

This past Saturday was the boxbird quail shoot think there were 18 or 19 shooters twenty birds each shooter . These were some of the strongest flying quail I’ve encountered in the ring . So out of four races per man there was only one 5 straight . Lots and lots of birds knocked down that fell just outside . I brought home a decent pile of quail for the table . John I meant to take some pictures of the boxes for you but it slipped my mind . There’s talk of another before the Southern if so I’ll try and take a few pictures for you .

[Bill Burwash]

This past Saturday was the boxbird quail shoot think there were 18 or 19 shooters twenty birds each shooter . These were some of the strongest flying quail I’ve encountered in the ring . So out of four races per man there was only one 5 straight . Lots and lots of birds knocked down that fell just outside . I brought home a decent pile of quail for the table . John I meant to take some pictures of the boxes for you but it slipped my mind . There’s talk of another before the Southern if so I’ll try and take a few pictures for you .

Sounds like a fun day. Maybe a full choke should be used? Thanks for the update.

[John Davis]

I think I recognize that dog.

[CraigThompson]

I think I recognize that dog.

I dunno if you’ve ever seen her before , but I’m sure you’ve seen her sister before . This one came to the Southern the first time I stayed overnight but I’d not brought her back since . If I make it to Sanford this year she’ll be there for sure .

[John Davis]

I dunno if you’ve ever seen her before , but I’m sure you’ve seen her sister before . This one came to the Southern the first time I stayed overnight but I’d not brought her back since . If I make it to Sanford this year she’ll be there for sure .

So she’s yours, not Jimmy’s?

[John Davis]

I was thinking y’all brought one to the Va State Shoot?

[JAMES HALL]

John , you are correct. State shoot all were there.

[CraigThompson]

John , you are correct. State shoot all were there.

Your two but I do t think mine was .