Parker 20 Gauge VHE Question

[EdSartell]

Gentleman,

I'm in a bind , I have a deposit on a 1913 20 Gauge VHE Serial # 163212 that will run out this Tuesday . Its a 1 1/2 frame, presently it has 26" barrels. Not sure on the chokes. I'd like to verify barrel length and chokes. One striking feature is the letter "K" stamped on the barrel adjacent to the 1 1/2. I believe this "K" represented a particular person who made these barrels.

If anyone could help soon it would be greatly appreciated

Thank you,

Ed Sartell

[David Noble]

I can't speak for the chokes but the serialization book confirms the barrel length.

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Ed: I'm not even close to being qualified to be giving advise to someone on a purchase but you may not be in a bind at all but it sounds like you are in first position to purchase a 20 Ga. Parker that left the factory with 26 inch barrels and depending on condition of said gun could be a great buy but don't know what price you are paying and if you post some pictures you will certainly get some great advise on this forum. Thomas

[Dave Suponski]

Ed, Others have told you the barrel length but my question would be....Are you sure about the frame size? The majority of Parker 20 gauge guns were built on O frames. We see an occasional 1 frame gun and we know of a couple of larger frame guns but they are few and far between.

[EdSartell]

Guys Thank you very much!!!! This gun has much better than average remaining case colors and the bluing is mostly intact . And yes its is definitely a 1 1/2 frame as indicated on the barrel lug. The bores are bright, I'll have to figure out whether its chambered for 2 1/2 or 2 3/4 and the chokes........gun priced at $ 1,900.00.

Again,

Thank both of you for your help.

Ed

[Thomas L. Benson Sr.]

Ed: It sounds like a keeper.I wouldn't be waiting to long to pick up that VHE 20 if everything else checks out.Thomas

[EdSartell]

Thomas.... this is painful, store doesn't open until tomorrow.

[Dean Romig]

I hope it is not a 12 ga. "tubed" to 20 ga.

[Rick Losey]

I hope it is not a 12 ga. "tubed" to 20 ga.

I am not near my book (because some idiot dropped a nail where my tire could find it)

But the serial number is listed, David confirmed the barrel length, so the guage can be confirmed as well.

Does seem odd short barrels on a heavier frame.

[EdSartell]

Dean,
How would check to see if this has been "tubed'?

[Rick Losey]

The book say it was born a 20 gauge

[Dean Romig]

Nope, the ID & Ser. book lists it as originally a 20 Gauge so it's not a 12 tubed to 20.


Oops... I see you already responded Rick.

[Rick Losey]

Oops... I see you already responded Rick.


just makes it official :)

[EdSartell]

Thank you

[EdSartell]

Dean,

I'm try to attach these pictures.....26424

26425

[EdSartell]

Damn I'm still figuring this site out..
Both barrels are choked the same. I'll send other pictures when I can. I just wanted to show this 20 gauge VHE frame size 1 1/2 with 26" barrels.

[EdSartell]

Dean,

As you can see the stock has been cut. But the owner had new wood made for the gun......26426

[David Noble]

I hope that gun belongs to you now. If not, I want it!
Are you sure that stock has been cut? Using the triangular ruler in your picture, the stock measures right on 14 inches and the new replacement measures 16 3/4! And, I see the original stock sports the correct spur butt plate.
Nice gun and very unusual configuration.

[Dean Romig]

Ed, it really does look like 14" roughly. Are you measuring from the front trigger?

I can't wait to see your new VHE. You can shoot skeet at my club with me as my guest.

You have my number... call me and we can plan on a time and day.

[EdSartell]

Yes I bought this today. I'm praying that stocks perfectly, so far so good. The existing stock is 13 3/4" from the front trigger. I need 14 1/4-3/8. Gun & Stocks $2400.

Dean you & I have a mutual friend.... Bill P. from Nahant. The three of us should get together for a few rounds of skeet. Danvers or Reading would be fine.

[EdSartell]

Does anyone know how many 20 Gauge 26" 1 1/2 frame guns were made?

[Dave Suponski]

Ed, We really don't know that. The frame size wasn't shown in the stock books until much later in production. We would basically need to go through all the 20 gauge guns and look at the requested weight and even at that it would just be a quess. Could you post a picture of the breech end of the barrels?

[EdSartell]

I have a picture on page two of this thread

[Paul Ehlers]

Ed,

Have you measured the distance between the firing pin centers on this gun yet?

[Dean Romig]

Wow - small world!! Lets get together soon. I shoot skeet Wednesday evenings and our new 5-stand range on Monday evenings both at Danvers. They both begin at 5 p.m.

Or Reading... it doesn't matter to me. Are the boys at Reading okay with me shooting Damascus guns?

[Dave Noreen]

I hope this gun comes to The Vintage Cup. I'd love to see it.

I think the boy's want a picture like this to see how heavy the breech end of the barrels are --

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/6frame12-ga6.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/Big2001.jpg

[Dave Suponski]

Exactly....Thank You Dave.

[EdSartell]

Dean,
That sounds great. Unfortunately I recently had surgery to re-attached a right bicep tendon to my forearm... I'll need a week ...;)

[EdSartell]

26435

26436

[edgarspencer]

Your picture of the barrel lug was just a bit too far to the left to show the barrel weight. Can we see the barrel flats?

[EdSartell]

26437

[Paul Ehlers]

Thanks for the pictures! You really have some gun there!

Can you tell if you think the case colors have been redone at some point. I ask, because looking at the standing breech it looks like the gun hasn't been shot much, if any. The CC are vivid & I can't detect the normal shell head rings seen on gun that have been shot alot.

I hope you are getting a letter on this gun before you do anything to it.

What a great find,

Paul

[Dean Romig]

4 lbs., 1 oz. is the average weight of a light 12 or a heavy 16 and pin centers of 1 1/8" translates to the 1 1/2 and 2 frame Parker. 26" barrels makes it an extremely unusual Parker.
Can't wait to see it up close and personal.

[Dave Noreen]

My 2-Frame 32-inch 20-gauge barrels only have a stamped weight of 4 pounds 5 ounces. I see this gun has a 17 stamped on the left barrel flat. My big 20 has a 153 in that location. Any idea what these numbers may mean?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v316/Ansleyone/Parker/5621308_zps55c295ea.jpg

[EdSartell]

Dean,

It'll your more than welcome to shoot this when we meet. Bill P. is checking the new wood for fit.

[EdSartell]

I have no idea what the 17 means.... I have been told that "K" on my barrel lug was the initial of barrel supervisor at parker.

[Dean Romig]

"K" is the mark of Walter King who took the position of Superintendant of the Parker Bros. Gunworks succeeding his father, Charles A. King, in October 1908. We often see W.K. on barrel flats which may have been his mark before Walter King took the position of Superintendant. For the 'last word' on these matters consult The Parker Story for accuracy of details.

[Marc Retallack]

Ed,

Good luck in your recovery. I had a very similar surgery 18 months ago. My orthopaedic surgeon told me it takes a full year for the repair to completely heal. It was a long year:banghead:.

Congratulations on an interesting Parker as well.

Cheers,
Marcus

[EdSartell]

Marc.... I hoping for better ,I have an appointment today.

[EdSartell]

Dean,

That's what Bill P. told me. Thanks.

[Pete Lester]

Yes I bought this today. I'm praying that stocks perfectly, so far so good. The existing stock is 13 3/4" from the front trigger. I need 14 1/4-3/8. Gun & Stocks $2400.


Have you considered using a lace on or other leather pad to extend the LOP so you use the original stock?

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/recoil-parts/recoil-pads/leather-lace-on-recoil-pad-prod1869.aspx

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Kick-Killer-Slip-On-Butt-Pad-with-VELCRO-brand-fastener/734596.uts

[EdSartell]

This gun came with a splinter fore end. The previous owner had a new stock and fore end made. But he had made a beaver tail fore end made. I have read that the beavertail barrel lug has additional soldering for strength. I cant see how this lug could fail just by changing from splinter to beavertail. What possible/additional stresses are there, excluding a poor fit

[scott kittredge]

This gun came with a splinter fore end. The previous owner had a new stock and fore end made. But he had made a beaver tail fore end made. I have read that the beavertail barrel lug has additional soldering for strength. I cant see how this lug could fail just by changing from splinter to beavertail. What possible/additional stresses are there, excluding a poor fit

When shooting a splinter forend you hold on barrels and wood, With beavertail you just hold on wood and all recoil force is on forend lug only, I have seen it break the lug free :crying: scott

[EdSartell]

If I choose to use the beavertail Id like to have the strength on the lug. Who can or how is it possible to add material to the lug?

[EdSartell]

Mystery solved... I received my research letter today. This shotgun was ordered by the Iver Johnson Sporting Goods Co. in Boston on March 14,1913 and delivered May 22, 1913.
Order book No. 88, it was a VHE hammerless 20 gauge 26" Vulcan barrels. Special instructions were: Chamber 2 7/8", full chokes.

The Price was $37.50 plus $18.75 for ejectors.

Parker Bros. Stock Book No.58, the stock configuration was a capped pistol grip and its specifications were: LOP 13", drop at heel 2", Weight 7 pounds and 7 ounces.

That explains the short stock... what a heavy 20 Gauge !

Chuck Bishop,

Thank you very much.

[greg conomos]

My guess is it was ordered with a short LOP because the user planned to have on a bunch of clothes and a heavy jacket in a blind. Maybe it was ordered with short barrels to make it easier to hoist up and out of a blind.

[Paul Ehlers]

Ed,

You have came across a very unique VHE-20ga. Now that you have the letter you can tell the gun was a special order for a special purpose.

IMHO, Because of the unique nature of this gun it would probably be considered a collectable VHE. If this were my gun I'd leave the original wood on it & keep it as close to the factory specs as possible. Any alterations you do to the gun will de-value the gun. If your not happy with it the way it is, I'd suggest placeing it for sale here in the member section & then look for the Parker which will make you happy & buy it when you find it.

I'd bet there are members who would be willing to trade something of equal value out of their collection for your gun.

Good luck with it, you have a really neat one off 20ga.

Paul

[EdSartell]

I've considered that this was ordered for a unique purpose. I've ruled out that it was for a youth since the weight is 7lbs 7oz. As for the stock, I was fortunate that the previous owner had a new stock made for this gun. I will keep the old stock for value sake.