Early 20th Century Powder Question?

[Researcher]

Same abbreviation info in a Winchester catalog, D for Du Pont Smokeless, DS for Dead Shot --

1916 Winchester Catalog pg 204 REPEATER.jpeg

[Mike of the Mountain]

That just may be correct. However, we can’t be too sure regarding the factory records because there is no key to decipher some abbreviations. All we can do is interpret the various entries as best as we can. Dead Shot does fall within the year the gun was made and the patterns tested. I will have to peruse TPS this afternoon and see if there is any pattern test info within those hallowed pages.

[Researcher]

Those abbreviations, D for DuPont and DS for Dead Shot seem to be an industry standard. I found the same in Peters and Western ammo catalogs as well as the Union Metallic Cartridge Co. and Winchester pages I had scanned into my computer.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Very good. Thank you Dave.

[Drew Hause]

It's not a surprise that most of the verbiage regarding burst barrels with Smokeless powder was related to confusion regarding grains & dram equivalents; esp. after the introduction of Dense Smokeless

July 1899 "Outdoor Life Ideal Shotgun Powder Table"

Black Powder (90 grains = 3 Dram)
“E.C.” No. 1 & “Schultze” - 41 grains
“E.C.” No. 2 - 35 grains
Velox - 105 1/2 grains
DuPont Bulk - 37 1/2 grains
Hazard Blue Ribbon Bulk - 37 1/2 grains
Gold Dust - 88 1/2 grains
Oriental - 37 grains
Troisdorf - 42 1/2 grains
King’s Semi-smokeless - 74 1/2 grains
King’s Smokeless - 54 grains


c. 1900 Powder Equivalents

...............................BULK............... ..................DENSE
.....….“E.C.” No.1....DuPont…..“Schultze”......Walsrode Green..Ballistite...Infallible
3 Dram....42............40................42........ ........30………..…...24...........22 grains
3 1/4.…...45.5..........43................45.......... ......32……..….…..26...........24 grains
3 1/2…....49.............46.5.............48.......... ......34………..…...28...........26 grains

The original “Schultze” & “E.C.” No. 1 Bulk Smokeless were 14 grains/dram
The original DuPont Bulk was 13 1/3 grains/dram
The original Laflin & Rand and Hazard “Blue Ribbon” Bulk were 12 1/3 grains/dram
Advertisements appeared in the later part of 1906 for “New DuPont Smokeless” which was also 12 1/3 grains/dram
“New Schultze”, New “E.C.(Improved) No. 2” Bulk Smokeless were 12 grains/dram.
“E.C. No. 3” was 11 grains/dram or 33 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.

Dense “Ballistite” and “Infallible” were later listed as equivalent at 8 grains/dram.

[Drew Hause]

American Powder Mills “Dead Shot” Bulk Smokeless was introduced in 1904, and “Dead Shot” ads first appeared in Sporting Life in 1906

Comparative Loads from the Lefever Arms Co. in The Outdoorsman's Handbook, 1920
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lr1...J&pg=PA138&lpg
Bulk DuPont, "Schultze", "E.C.", and Dead Shot are listed as equivalent so I assume that Dead Shot was another 42 grain = 3 Dram

[Mike of the Mountain]

I looked in TPS volume I, I found info on choke boring. The writers say that in the early days of Parker Bros in the black powder days, Parker Bros would hand load the test shells. Moving forward, when the various smokeless powders were introduced, Parker Bros would use factory shells as they were readily available. That said, it is a possibility that DS does indeed stand for Dead Shot. We can certainly say that “DS stands for Dead Shot, DuPont Smokeless or Dense Smokeless.” Too bad we can’t ask a factory employee.

[Ed Blake]

Are there any modern equivalents to Dense Smokeless?

[Mike of the Mountain]

From what I know, dense smokeless was made to be measured like black powder. That said, maybe a black powder substitute such as Pioneer powder? I wouldn’t bother with it.

I was thinking bulk smokeless, not dense smokeless. Drew is 100% correct. That would not end well.

[Drew Hause]

OH NO MIKE!!!!
Bulk Smokeless was measured by volume and early on the volume was the same a black powder. That changed with 33 grain = 3 Dram Eq. Bulk powders
Dense was ONLY to be measured by grains/weight.



A 3 Dr. Eq. (Dram Equivalent) load of “E.C.” No. 1 or “Schultze” was 42 grains by weight. 3 Dr. Eq. of Dense Smokeless Ballistite was 24 grains; Infallible 22 grains. The pressure of a 3 Dram (82 grains by volume) load of Black Powder with 1 1/8 oz. of shot at 1200 fps is about 5000 psi. The pressure of 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi; 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

Substituting a Dense Smokeless powder for Black or Bulk Smokeless powder would double the charge. It has been estimated that 50 grains of Infallible or Unique could reach 30,000 psi.