Kent Bismuth in 12 gauge Trojan

[Tom Flanigan]

Originally Posted by Frank Srebro

This must be our age of enlightenment …. well I'm so happy to learn that old time serious duck hunters like Buckingham, Sheldon and Askins got it all wrong, using 1-1/4 and 1-3/8-ounce heavy progressive loads when ducks wouldn't work the decoys and taking longish shots over the water and against the sky, both where it's so hard to estimate actual distance. How many can resist that temptation nowadays? Those I named and others of great experience must have just plain fell for the hype in all those long range tech articles by professional ballisticians and were duped by adverts by the likes of Western, Ajax and Peters.

Good to know that some of you have the skill to center punch ducks flying at different speeds, distances and varying angles with modern efficient loads. Great! Good shooting! Me, I often can't do that and might hit the bird with the fringe of the pattern. I always liked that saying about the difference between 1-ounce and 1-1/4-ounce ….. "when the gun goes bang that extra 1/4-ounce has to go somewhere".

Many of the old boys such as Elmer Keith talked of heavy loads and long shots. Elmer used his Ithaca 3 1/2 inch ten bore to take geese to 80 yards. I've read most of their stuff including Askins who was Elmer's mentor. But I never shoot over 50 yards, never ever. And I never let the opinions of others become my opinions, even the likes of Askins and Keith who I truly enjoy reading. My comments are based solely on my personaL experience. I read what they had to say and then find out for myself. I have shot countless patterns and extensively shot all types of game for 55 years. My opinions are my own based on my actual experiences and testing. I am careful to preface my statements with "in my opinion". It's just that, my opinion. Others are free to read my posts and disagree. Thats what it's all about. Nobody would question the experience of Jack O'Connor or Elmer Keith. But both of those gentlemen disagreed on most everything. Jack O'Connor touted the .270 for elk and moose. Elmer Keith said anyone who hunted elk or moose with a .270 was a damn fool. My own experience taking moose with the .270 convinced me that Jack was right and Elmer was wrong. But my opinion is based on my experience, not the words of either gentlemen.

[Drew Hause]

I'm not buying the marketing, or gun writin' guy hyperbole.

Parker Bros. 1929 Catalog
"Magnum, Super, and variously named guns about which so much is now being written are not a new development in the gun makers' art. For the past twenty years Parker Brothers have made guns to handle heavy charges of powder and shot, giving good patterns at long range. Recent improvements in powder and by shell manufacturers have served to make the Parker Long Range gun even more effective, so that today the Parker built and bored to secure the full power of modern loads with which one may confidently expect to bring down game at distances a few years ago considered impossible, is up to date but not new. Parker Long Range guns are built to guard the user against abnormal recoil. The weight of the barrels is so distributed that the gun handles the heaviest loads with comfort. The purchaser of a Parker Long Range can rest assured that he will receive a gun, easy to handle, sufficiently heavy and properly bored to shoot the heaviest loads for the killing of wild fowl at extreme ranges."

Pattern testing by David Williamson with .042" choke 32" LRWF at a measured 80 yards using 3 inch Winchester (plastic) hull with 38.35 grains of Blue Dot, Winchester 209 primer, Winchester AASL wad, and 1 3/8 ounces of #5 nickel plated shot. The average number of pellets was 246 and measured weight 1.353 ounce.
Number of pellets in duck for 3 shots: 5,6 & 6. Pattern % in 30" circle: 5.3 = 13 pellets, 8.1 = 20 pellets & 8.5 = 21 pellets.



Any chance this "duck" is dead in the air?

[King Cobb]

Originally Posted by Tom Flanigan

Many of the old boys such as Elmer Keith talked of heavy loads and long shots. Elmer used his Ithaca 3 1/2 inch ten bore to take geese to 80 yards. I've read most of their stuff including Askins who was Elmer's mentor. But I never shoot over 50 yards, never ever. And I never let the opinions of others become my opinions, even the likes of Askins and Keith who I truly enjoy reading. My comments are based solely on my personaL experience. I read what they had to say and then find out for myself. I have shot countless patterns and extensively shot all types of game for 55 years. My opinions are my own based on my actual experiences and testing. I am careful to preface my statements with "in my opinion". It's just that, my opinion. Others are free to read my posts and disagree. Thats what it's all about. Nobody would question the experience of Jack O'Connor or Elmer Keith. But both of those gentlemen disagreed on most everything. Jack O'Connor touted the .270 for elk and moose. Elmer Keith said anyone who hunted elk or moose with a .270 was a damn fool. My own experience taking moose with the .270 convinced me that Jack was right and Elmer was wrong. But my opinion is based on my experience, not the words of either gentlemen.

Who needs a .270? I know a grandmother in my town who has taken 3 elk with a .257 bob.

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Tom Flanigan

Many of the old boys such as Elmer Keith talked of heavy loads and long shots. Elmer used his Ithaca 3 1/2 inch ten bore to take geese to 80 yards. I've read most of their stuff including Askins who was Elmer's mentor. But I never shoot over 50 yards, never ever. And I never let the opinions of others become my opinions, even the likes of Askins and Keith who I truly enjoy reading. …....

I'm pretty sure the Askins mentioned in the quote is Askins Jr, not the senior Askins who was the noted shotgun expert. Anyone interested in shooting vintage shotguns should get a copy of Modern Shotguns and Loads by Capt Charles Askins (senior) that was originally published in 1929. The book and its reprint are generally available on Ebay etc. You'll be absolutely flabbergasted by the Cap's extensive detail in this book, to include the pellet counts and efficiencies derived from hundreds of objective patterning tests of all gauges, and at ranges up to 60+ yards for ducking loads. He wasn't one to come up with opinions without having extensive data to back them up.


Back to the very first question by the original poster, regarding the Kent 12 ga/2-3/4-inch load with 1-1/4 ounce of its new Bismuth shot. Speed was cited at 1325 which is on par with the our familiar American 12-gauge "high brass" load of lead shot. It might be good for anyone interested to check with Kent or other sources to determine where that velocity was measured, i.e., at 3 ft as typical with American shotshells, or at the muzzle (or back calculated to the muzzle) as often done on foreign made shells? Indeed if the latter, that 1325 would be more like 1250 or so per the American protocol.