Short Chambered 12's.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Brian Dudley

I to not yet have a copy of TPS. But I have a sneaking suspicion that there might be one under the tree in a few weeks. :-)

My major concern is putting regular 2-3/4" shells, either Target or Game loads, through it with the 2.5" chambers. My gunsmith says not a good idea because of the higher pressures that it will cause, but he is not as well versed in these older guns.

If I am reading into what you guys are saying correct, then there should be no concern?

Brian I have become a big fan of light loads, especially 7/8 ounce 12ga. Some hunting situations call for heavier loads. I have come to enjoy the light recoil and how much longer a bag of shot lasts.

I have given you first hand testimony of my experience, how many other Trojans (and other Parkers) were fed steady diets of "heavy" loads without problem? The railroads overbuilt their bridges, Parker overbuilt their guns is my theory.

The evidence is in through Sherman Bells tests, pressure rise from using 2 3/4" shells in short chambers is negligible. However I am older and wiser than I once was and I reload. I have learned to tame my loads in terms of both pressure and velocity (the latter for less recoil). I can tell you low pressure lower velocity loads are quite deadly and I see no reason to go back to punishing my guns and shoulders unless I am waterfowling.

[Bruce Day]

OK, look at it this way. A typical AA12ga 1 1/8 oz load at 1200fps, what's that run, 8200psi? Then per Bell, add 10% for chamber length less than nominal 2 3/4" and = 9020, right? So you know from the p. 515 chart that your gun, assuming that it is not dangerously thin walled, off face or stock oill soaked, cracked, etc, has a recommended service load average of 9500 and a mean definitive proof load of 13,700psi. So are you good to go?

Then consider a typical Win AA 1 oz load at expended hull length of 2 5/8. That's 1 /8" of very thin plastic wall over the nominal chamber length. Is there anyone who would seriously suggest that that sliver would cause an increase of even 10%?


If you had an abundance of caution, you would never shoot an old gun.....at least that's what the manufacturers would tell you. So, if you do choose to accept some small risk, you can either try to understand these load and pressure matters, because some really get into this and like to know, or if you you don't want to think about it, just call RST and order a case because they formulate for older guns.

I am with Pete, I really like light loads at targets. But I also am somewhat of a student of shotgun ballistics and like to know what I can load to and sometimes I take real delight in dusting the 60 and 70 yard targets or the long dove.

[J.B. Books]

Ralphy asks if it's OK to shoot 2 3/4" shells in short chambers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jCr8QSGYss

[Autumn Daze]

Bruce, Please recheck your numbers standard 12 gauge 1 1/8 oz. loads are closer to 9,500 psi.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Dave Suponski

Bruce, Please recheck your numbers standard 12 gauge 1 1/8 oz. loads are closer to 9,500 psi.

I think you are both on the low side. Factory shells are designed to cycle autoloaders. Tom Armbrust reported his findings on Winchester AA Light Target loads (2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 ounce) as 11,200psi + or - 600psi. They still won't hurt a sound Trojan.

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/aalight.htm

[Researcher]

The Remington era Parker specification sheets are reproduced on pages 164 to 169 of The Parker Story, and they call for about a 1/8 inch short chamber in all gauges.

[Bruce Day]

Dave, they are correct, as I checked that personally with a 1939 12ga.

I've pulled out the Hodgdon manual and I see lots of 1 1/8 12ga AA's at around 8000, and I am looking for the factory specs. We got a whole pallet of 1 oz AA ultralights and I'm thinking that they were around 8 or 8500 could be wrong. Most of the regular shooters at the club with doubles, stacks or side bys, are shooting very light practice loads. And we have a vintage shoot also.

I'm shooting a lot of 16's with 7/8 and the new Downrange wads.

Ralphy is a lot like me the first time I ever shot damascus way back when. Bundled up, motorcycle helmet and face guard, gloves, hold the gun at arms length waiting for the barrels to unravel like a spring, shrapnel pepper everywhere, I look away and pull the trigger and the gun goes pop. An d pop and pop and nothing happens and some old timer says told you so. So then I took off everything and shot a round of trap and had fun. I had bought a G grade damascus beater from Muderlak years ago, the best thing to be said about the gun was that it was original and not altered, but it had a decided clunker factor. And it was rock steady and solid with out of the box loads and I started thinking about all the wrong things said about damascus and old Parkers and how they were really much more capable than many people gave them credit for. Not delicate for sure.

[Autumn Daze]

Pete nailed it. I was estimating on the low side. Bruce, You are correct about the AA Lites. The big 3 shell manufacturing companys do not publicise there load data. You have to call them.My 1 oz. 12 gauge target loads are about 6800 psi and they break targets just fine. I have half a flat of factory STS's sitting here for about 8 years now and can't bring myself to shoot them.Maybe I'll run them through my Model 12

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Dave Suponski

\ I have half a flat of factory STS's sitting here for about 8 years now and can't bring myself to shoot them.Maybe I'll run them through my Model 12

Or you could bring them with you on New Years Day and I will risk life limb and gun and shoot them for you My 9lb 3 frame 12 makes them feel like sissy shells.

[Roundsworth]

Brian, I use my 1929 vintage Trojan 20 gauge for hunting only. I go through a few boxes of cartridges per year, and do not mind spending a few dollars more for RSTs or Polywads. My Trojan has 2-1/2" chambers. If I ever planned on shooting it a lot, I would simply load my own 2-1/2" cartridges. Most of my 'shooters', rifles and handguns, were made prior to 1900. For numerous reasons, I keep my handloads toned down a bit for recreational shooting. If I chose to hunt with any of them, I can bump the loads up a bit and still be safe. I am a firm believer in using the correct ammunition in my guns.

Added note: Today I procured a brass 3" 12 gauge shell with the Parker headstamp. I wonder how receptive an 1870s vintage Parker would be to firing a modern 3" commercial load.