Hammer gun load advice

[RickR]

New forum member here. After decades away from shotgunning experiences including hobby restorations, I recently bought a basket case top lever 12 on-line with the intent to have a fun shooter for occasional Skeet or a grouse hunt...maybe even as a Cowboy shooter. Fingers crossed the seller's description of modest pitting but shootable was accurate, I had some old 10 bore wads that I sanded down to 12 ga. and some Pyrodex RS for my BP rifle. I cut off a few AA hulls at the crimp, got a 3dr. 1 oz load to fit, and when the gun arrived, within an hour I was at the range. She went bang with no issues and the cyl. bores were in evidence with huge 10yd. patterns. So I ordered proper wads and began the restoration.

First surprise is chamber length. Visually minimal forcing cones, the chambers are smooth out to 2 3/4", but when using the depth gauge, the forcing cones are really like another 1/4" of chamber, just less polished, to a really minimal step up into the bore of less than the thickness of the plastic hull's wall thickness. Didn't give it much thought, so modified my load to fit a normal 2 3/4" hull and full crimped 1/2 dozen for another test. Not finished, but shootable, I drove to a private club and as a favor, they let me fire those 6 at station one Skeet. Hit 5 of 6 even dealing with a lot of drop-at-heel.

Got the gun looking right 'purty", and with a combo of hand powder dumping and my dusted off MEC loader, I loaded up several boxes (2 3/4dr. RS, 3/8ths wads, 1 oz. in a shot cup cut from a WW wad), drove back to that skeet range only to find the closed Covid-19 sign. Aargh! New gun, no place to shoot.

Basically wanting to learn more about the gun, I joined this forum 3 days ago. But the data here is overwhelming. Not only have I found no real ID info (top lever SN 48xxx) age? grade?; but information overload as I tried to follow the threads on safe low pressure loads. Surprises include constant references to factory brands with the posters assuming the reader knows of them, and how common it appears that the conventional wisdom of no damascus ever even with black is NOT on Parker guy's don't do it radar.

My gun appears to have been honed to "improve" the pitting, and reading the admonitions about wall thicknesses, but without plain info on details, I'm now nervous my gun might not be safe enough to shoot with confidence.

I assume my load is very low pressure (???), way less than the 8000 PSI smokeless threshold often cited. But...

My bores measure .734...trouble is without knowing what they might have been before, that doesn't define how much has been honed away.

And at the chamber end, lengthening the chamber forward AND honing the bore have removed most of the forcing cone. But I don't have an unaltered gun to stare down as a visual comparison.

The barrels ring like a tuning fork when struck. But otherwise, how do I know my gun is ok other than a long string and a proof load risk?

Advice? Help?

Thanks,

RickR

[Dean Romig]

Hello Rick -

First, please tell us what the whole serial number is and we can look it up in the Parker Gun Identification and Serialization book (if it is listed) and we can tell you some basics on how it left the factory.
A PGCA Research letter should complete the story of originality. But first and foremost, get the wall thickness measured at strategic points along the length, and circumferentially at those points as well, by a knowledgable and competent double gun expert.

Yes, a lot of us shoot modern powders in our composite barreled Parkers but we either buy low pressure ammo specifically made for these guns or we load our own to published low pressure loads.

Pictures of your gun would aid in the discussion.





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[RickR]

Thank you Dean. Here's a "before picture" off the site where I bought it. She's SN 48237. As you can see, my description of "basket case" is apt. The other shots including the broken stock would add to that descriptor....but

For the sake of brevity, what I wrote makes me sound less experienced or capable while also avoiding mention that spending just about what a beat up Stevens 311 goes for was a budget stretch. The impression of just another opinionated "expert" was a label I wanted to avoid too. Nope, no expert, just an experienced hobbiest with an extensive past in doubles. Besides more rehabilitation/restorations I can recall; I have owned and used damascus (evidently "composite" is the newer term) in 1/2 dozen or so vintage classics, the last being a 10 bore lifter that I shot quail, chukars, pheasants and even sporting clays with it. But that was decades ago.

Back then, it was radical to shoot those old guns. It just wasn't done by anyone wanting to keep all his barrel hand fingers and eyes. Those of us who were young enough to believe we were bullet proof figured if the bores were passable and the gun was still on it's face, and the barrels rang, stuff an equal amount 2F and shot by volume into a cut off hull plus some way to hold the shot in, and fire away without worry. Always worked for me, but I also admit I always opted for 12 or 16 loads no more than an ounce but had to go heavier just to get a 10 load that worked well.

With that background, I felt qualified to judge this gun, now looking way better, as a shooter. So perhaps there was a touch of paranoia in my post, as what I was reading had the general thread of how to know if a "composite" gun will be ok with lower pressure smokeless? There wasn't much on "if ok with black substitutes".

I have outlived anyone I might have turned to in times past. Given the above and that I have no one with knowledge to show the gun to or $$ for an opinion, is there a way I can get confident again?

[RickR]

Oops. Forgot to add some spec's. Barrels are 26". #1 frame. 7.4 lbs.

[edgarspencer]

It's probably unlikely too much was honed in the area you are measuring .734", because standard 12 bore is .729", and my experience is that most Parker hammer guns I have owned, TL or lifter, were well over .729" and often upwards of .745"

[Harry Collins]

Rick,

The "Book" indicates your Parker left the factory as an 1886 Grade O with Plain Twist 30" barrels and capped pistol grip. I'm not being flippant by the following: I have never had my barrels measured for wall thickness. My thought process has been if there is pitting visible it is unlikely the barrels have been messed with and I try not to over think it. Many of my Parkers have bore in the .734 range as well. I have an 1881 Twist Steel Parker with light pitting and .751 bores I shoot all the time with AA hulls, 1oz, Win 209, 19.5 WST, WAA12SL @ 1180 and 7,400 psi. That is the same as AA Xtra-Lite target load. In fact I will shoot most anything off the shelf that is 1oz and under 1200 fps. Most shooters here are more clever and affluent than I and shoot http://www.rstshells.com These shells have appropriate velocities and pressures for old stocks, Damascus and Twist barrels. I'm 72 and like you I had been warned of the dangers of Damascus all my life. It was with trepidation I started shooting them with Federal paper hulls and IMR 7625. A load Ross Seyfried had published in Guns and Ammo sometime in the 1980's. Good luck and have fun.

Kindest,
Harry

[Opening Day]

Rick, post what part of Wisc. you live in and someone may chime in that can help you measure your wall thickness. Also there is a large SxS shoot in Medford WI second week in July (hopefully) that you should attend and Jon Hosford will be there and he will measure your barrels.

[Bill Murphy]

From your description of the bores, it would seem that the chambers have been lengthened to 2 3/4", but the bores have probably not been honed. Probably no big deal to shoot it since the forcing cones don't seem to have been bored out.

[RickR]

You've relieved my paranoia since my loads are probably generating 1/2 the pressure of the smokeless ones being used.

I'd heard there was a double gun gathering here in Wisconsin during the Summer. Where do I get the specifics?

Heck yes, I would LOVE to meet someone into shooting that could fill me in. I'm just 10 miles into Wisconsin and off I-94 East of MPLS/St. Paul in a small village (Roberts). Moved here 4 years ago and then wife became ill. As primary caretaker I've been forced into stay home social distancing for all that time. Prevented me from making any new shooting friends, or even finding a place to hunt such that I can get home quickly if she needs me.

Aside, I've always thought that Cowboy Action shooting was sort of silly since I hunted with lever guns, doubles and carried a +P+ loaded .44 spcl Colt as my deer revolver. Finding out there is a club nearby and meeting members who encouraged me to participate (aha! shooters to get to know), I have been rethinking that. This Parker (I also have a sixgun and a Winchester in .45 Colt) got me re-thinking my opinion just so I can have something to get away to.

RE the bores, I have only an inside caliper and micrometer to measure them, so I can only get in 2 inches or so at the muzzles to arrive at the .734 bore size. No way for me to know for sure if that dimension remains constant along the rest of the barrels. There was a small dent in one muzzle that I may have caused, and since I didn't have one of those cylinder shaped choke gauges, I ordered one thinking I could use the .729 cyl. designation to insert and tap out the dent. So when the gauge arrived, and it fell all the way through the barrels and out the breech...added to my honed too thin concern.

Here are a couple of "after rehab" photos. Not too bad having been out of practice for 30 years.

Rick

[charlie cleveland]

nice gun..i have been shooting damascus and stub twist andwire twist and what ever for many years with smokeless powder...i ve been shooting my dads e grade lefever since i was 15 years old with smokeless loads that were 4 3/4 and 1 5/8 ounce loads 2 7 /8 inch long... i am now 72 years old...in fact yesterday and today i am hunting with a 8 ga davenport single barrel that has wire twist barrels and i shoot smokeless loads thru it...but today i am hunting with black powder loads not for safety but to try and get a turkey with them...charlie