Barrel Length

[ArtS]

I saw an interesting listing today (Guns International #: 101858387) that was new this week. The private seller is named Russell from Pennsylvania. He may be a memeber here; don't know.

The listing is for a 20 gauge PH O frame with Twist barrels. The serial number from the Oct 2021 Research letter shown is 175982. This pops up as having factory data availbable but the serialization book has no entry and the correct stock book is listed as missing. Unfortunately none of the pictures show the water table, the trigger guard or any other part with the serial number. The interesting part is that the Letter based on the order lists the barrel as 25-1/2".
One picture shows a tape measure at the muzzle measuring 25-3/8". The rib at the breech shows a correct solid strip in front of the matting. The seller is proposing that the gun is either one of the 2 listed PH 20 gauges with 25" barrels or a unique one of a kind. Unfortunately, with the pictures shown, it is impossible to determine if any of the facts are correct. There is a picture of the barrel flats which shows a T, but it is neither circled or have the arcs top and bottom. The angle of that picture doesn't show the serial number. It does show that it is an O frame barrel set. I do have to agree that it doesn't look like a longer set of barrels cut down.

The final unfortunate thing is that the barrel rib engraving which should say Twist Steel has been scratched off.

The thing that puzzled me is that I have never seen or heard of a set of 25-1/2" barrels (or any other fractional measurement). Being a 25" is rare enough (I own one) but I went through all the tables in the Parker story and only came up with a total of 24 for all grades and barrel steel variations. The 24" are much more common. There are no fractional lengths mentioned at all. I would suspect if an order were recieved and accomodated, they would take a rough set of 26", cut them down then finish with ribs to match. This would be supported by the fact that the gun was ordered in Nov 1916 and shipped September 1917, which was late in the last year of Twist barrel PH production. The long lead on a low grade gun could have been due to finding a set of barrels and modifying them.

The barrel flats show a weight of 3-7. The ad shows a gun wight of 6# 12 oz, which is 12 or 13 oz more than my 16 ga O frame damascus. That could be true given the reduced bore and the fact the barrels have to fit the same frame externally. However, nearly 7 pounds for a 20 gauge isn't exactly a wand.

Has anyone ever heard of a situation where barrels were fractional from the factory, especially when involving a rare length to start with? Of all the factory letters I have seen, this is a first.

[Dean Romig]

Respectfully Arthur, with so many doubts and so many questions why don’t you simply contact the seller and let us know if you get the answers you need?





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[Randy Roberts]

Arthur I have seen a 10 gauge in the ser. book that is shown as 37" and letters as 37 3/8. Yes, it is in the letter. I have also seen at least one documented 25 1/2" gun, I recall it being a 12. They are out there, actually while perusing the ser. book I have came across a few 25" guns.

[Brush Buster]

Originally Posted by Randy G Roberts

Arthur I have seen a 10 gauge in the ser. book that is shown as 37" and letters as 37 3/8. Yes, it is in the letter. I have also seen at least one documented 25 1/2" gun, I recall it being a 12. They are out there, actually while perusing the ser. book I have came across a few 25" guns.

Yes ,I have owned a couple of 25" and 27" guns in the past that lettered as such ,the one I regret parting with is Serial # 106312 , DH 28 Ga. w/25" Titanic Steel Barrels , The only one listed in the Parker Story ,Page 291 ! I traded it because it was an O Frame and I had an Itch for a Parker 410 and this made it affordable to me !

[Randy Roberts]

Originally Posted by Russ Jackson

Yes ,I have owned a couple of 25" and 27" guns in the past that lettered as such ,the one I regret parting with is Serial # 106312 , DH 28 Ga. w/25" Titanic Steel Barrels , The only one listed in the Parker Story ,Page 291 ! I traded it because it was an O Frame and I had an Itch for a Parker 410 and this made it affordable to me !

I'm not into the short barrel guns much Russ. Having said that if I owned 106312 you would have one heck of a time getting me to part with that one. Wow what a gun that would be. No doubt you regret that sale.

[Brush Buster]

Originally Posted by Randy G Roberts

I'm not into the short barrel guns much Russ. Having said that if I owned 106312 you would have one heck of a time getting me to part with that one. Wow what a gun that would be. No doubt you regret that sale.

Yes Randy ,that is one I should have never parted with and the funny thing is ,The Dealer I made the deal with had a nice VHE 410 that I was debating on buying and the Runge BHE Upgrade 410 I did buy ! I could have bought the VHE without trading the 28 and he did his best to tell me If I traded the 28 Gauge I would never have the opportunity to get it back so maybe I should really consider and maybe even reconsider ,I did but a year or so later I sort of regret it 12 years later I really regret it ! Live and Learn !

[Bill Murphy]

There are probably dozens of fractional barrel lengths, but they are not listed because there was obviously no provision for fractions when the authors' helpers were keypunching data. No mystery there. The order book entry stated 25 1/2", according to the ad. No mystery there either.

[ArtS]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

Respectfully Arthur, with so many doubts and so many questions why don’t you simply contact the seller and let us know if you get the answers you need?





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Actually, Russ contacted me, telling me it was his gun, and filled me in on the details. I didn't contact the seller since I was interested in the historical aspect of the gun and had no idea at that point if the seller was really knowledgeable or not. I presented the facts in the original post in an effort to explain my question. I don't remember expressing any doubts. The barrels were obviously original in my mind due to the finish of the rib at the muzzle. What I didn't know was if there was ever a record of this being a normal sales practice (customizing barrel lengths). I have recieved several positive responses so apparently it certainly occured occasionally. I was the first mention of this I could remember seeing anywhere and was curious.

[Brush Buster]

Good Morning all , Russell from PA. Here !!! YES ,this is one of mine I have decided to sell ,I sent Art a PM ! Rather an interesting gun , I was never really concerned about the barrels being original ,the truth is the weight of the gun is what I cant figure out ! It is comfortable to carry as the weight falls right on the receiver not at all barrel heavy so I suspected some mention of it in the letter as a special order thing maybe but nothing mentioned about it ! I believe it to possibly be one of the two guns listed in the Parker Story as 25" Barreled guns or even possibly one of a kind PH 20 Gauge with 25 1/2" Barrels ! Either way a Very Unique Gun !

[Dean Romig]

It is a well-known fact that Parker Brothers would build a gun to order as long as the order was within parameters set by PB and “within reason” and custom length barrels are certainly within reason.





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