CYLINDER AND CYLINDER IN A LOT OF UNCUT LIFTERS

[J. A. EARLY]

When looking at a lot of early lifters advertised for sale, I see continually the chokes are listed as cylinder and cylinder. And these are uncut guns, on the bigger frames like 2s (not light bird guns) with the barrel length matching the book.

When I measure some that have choke, they are overbored way past .729. I know Parker knew the bore of 12 gauge guns, and unaltered guns are right around .729 +/-. My question is did these guns leave the factory in the 1870s as cylinder and cylinder, and the ones from that period that are bored to .750 or more with choke were altered after they left Parker to put choke into them? Or is this how Parker put the choke into them, boring to .729 and then overboring for choke?

When did Parker finally start putting choke in barrels on a 100% basis unless specified not to, and sticking to the nominal 12 gauge bore size and boring for choke at the end? Thanks in advance for your help.

[C.O.B.]

I received a lifter from 1880 just recently. The bores are .729 and it's choked the equivalent of M/F. Very early guns might have been produced before the choke system was implemented.

[Bill Murphy]

The records will tell us how guns were chokes originally. If you have a big frame cylinder and cylinder gun, request a letter to see how it was originally bored. Rich's .729 1880 gun is not the norm in my experience.

[Researcher]

Normally, Parker Bros. guns up to about 1893 were made considerably overbore, for use with black powder loaded brass shells with one gauge larger wads. My 1889 vintage 12-gauge GH-Grade is .757". If one attempts to measure (?) the chokes of these earlier guns with a plug type choke gauge they will look cylinder at least. On the other hand, my Grandfather's 1890 vintage heavy 30-inch barrel PH-Grade, when I got a letter on it from Ron Kirby, was ordered cylinder and cylinder, I suspect for shooting pumpkin balls.

Once smokeless powders for and paper shotshells began taking hold in the early 1890s, Parker Bros. began to bore true to gauge.

[J. A. EARLY]

Originally Posted by Dave Noreen

Normally, Parker Bros. guns up to about 1893 were made considerably overbore, for use with black powder loaded brass shells with one gauge larger wads. My 1889 vintage 12-gauge GH-Grade is .757". If one attempts to measure (?) the chokes of these earlier guns with a plug type choke gauge they will look cylinder at least. On the other hand, my Grandfather's 1890 vintage heavy 30-inch barrel PH-Grade, when I got a letter on it from Ron Kirby, was ordered cylinder and cylinder, I suspect for shooting pumpkin balls.

Once smokeless powders for and paper shotshells began taking hold in the early 1890s, Parker Bros. began to bore true to gauge.

Thanks Dave,

That is what I am suspecting as well; the gun shops or individuals, very few of which have tools to measure the bores, are sticking a brass gauge down the ends and saying cylinder and cylinder, when there is really choke there due to the larger inside bore diameter.

[Harry Collins]

I have two lifters from 1881. One would think both Parkers are cylinder in each barrel if the inside diameter at the muzzle were measured. The 10 gauge bores are .802 and have .030 constriction. The 12 gauge has .752 bores and .013 constriction. The old 12 gauge lifter with twist barrels is my sporting clays gun.

Harry

[Dean Romig]

There is a very interesting article in the Summer 2014 Issue of Parker Pages by Richard Hoover which addresses a good number of the questions regarding the boring and chambering of early Parker Bros. guns.

[Bill Murphy]

I would estimate that about 3% of people who call themselves "gunsmiths" actually own a bore micrometer. That answers the cylinder and cylinder question for those who won't order a PGCA letter.

[B. Dudley]

All the guns advertised as cylinder are likely checked with a quick check guage. A choke will never measure accurately this way on a gun with oversized bores as many early guns are.

I have had guns that quick check as clyinder and the constriction actually measures as full.