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Derrick Stewart PGCA Member
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How common is the round knob grip on hammerless guns and were these special orderd guns? It seems like all the ones i've seem are Damascus guns. Cabelas has a 12 ga DHE on there site with a round knob grip and I personally like this configuration. |
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David Purnell PGCA Member 
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The round grip went well into the fluid steel era. In the serialization book, I believe it is called a "pistol grip" rather than a "capped pistol grip". I have one on a 1901 DH 12ga with titanic steel barrels. Dave Last edited on Thu May 28th, 2009 04:37 pm by David Purnell |
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Dean Romig PGCA Member
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They were common right through the Remington era. The (uncapped) pistol grip "P" accounts for probably 25% of VH and VHE .410 Parkers made. |
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Bill Murphy PGCA Member
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Dean is right on. My capped pistol grip VHE .410 skeet is a bit of an oddity among the more numerous round grip .410 skeets. Large bore round grip guns in the fluid steel era are just as unusual. I have owned only one such gun, a 32" VH #2 frame 20. By the way, has anyone seen my old 32" 20 #153,333? I don't want to miss an opportunity to get help in my search. Yup, it has a round grip, dogs head buttplate and weighs eight pounds. Who owns it now? |
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Derrick Stewart PGCA Member
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Can we see some pic's of these round grip guns?? |
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David Purnell PGCA Member
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This is a 1901 12ga DH Attached Image (viewed 346 times): |
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David Purnell PGCA Member
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another view Attached Image (viewed 344 times): |
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Steve Huffman BBS Member
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Ch round grip Attached Image (viewed 333 times): |
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Dave Suponski PGCA Member
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I,m sure Dean would not mind me posting this picture of his lovely Bernard CH. Attached Image (viewed 317 times): |
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gill frye BBS Member
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Yeah, I love the round knob, especially with the gold shield. |
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Dean Romig PGCA Member
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Not at all Dave, but here's a better picture of it. Attached Image (viewed 293 times): |
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Dean Romig PGCA Member
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Another view Attached Image (viewed 292 times): |
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Larry Frey PGCA Member
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Here's one for you Gill. Attached Image (viewed 260 times): |
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Derrick Stewart PGCA Member
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Thanks to everyone for posting pic's. Dean, that Bernard CH wouldn't by chance have the roundel engraving would it? Larry, tell me about that gun. I've not seen that one. |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member 
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Several comments; The rounded pistol grip is designated 1/2 PG in the order book and as PG in the Serialization Book, in distinction to PG or CPG respectively in the order book and Serialization Book for the capped pistol grip. The clear order of buyer preference when the guns were made was pistol grip, straight hand ( or grip) , then 1/2 pistol grip. As the grades went up, the straight hand became more favored, in the B's and above it was about 50/50, but the 1/2 PG's still lagged far behind in popularity. As Mr. Murphy pointed out, many of the small bore guns, 28's and 410's, had the 1/2 PG. It appears it was most popular with the light, small guns. Dean's new CH Bernard looks to be an 1880's or early 1890's gun and is a true ball grip, the grip end having a more ball or round shape than the later 1/2 PG. You see the ball grip quite a bit in the hammer guns and more rarely in the higher grade early hammerless. Nice gun, Dean. The roundel side panel engraving, from my investigation, is only on a minority of C's from about 1900 to 1905. I'm fairly sure about the end date, but less sure about the start date, and I'm interested in these, so I look. There are a few B's with the roundel in the same time period....the Annie Oakley B grade for example. If anyone wants one, the ex-Vincent Holmes CHE Bernard 12ga is still for sale at Cabelas Dundee. Larry Frey has one on a 16ga CHE Bernard and I have one on a 20ga CHE Damascus. They seem to be rare, or at least uncommon. B's and above with the 1/2 PG had a rounded gold grip cap. These were usually plain, but some were engraved with scroll and some had owner's initials or presentation inscriptions. I don't own one of these, but they are particularly pleasing in my opinion. Here is SN 157,539, a little sweetheart of a DHE 20ga at 5lbs12oz with the 1/2 pistol grip. Attached Image (viewed 239 times): Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 01:06 pm by Bruce Day |
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Larry Frey PGCA Member
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Derrick, It's an AHE 20 with 28" Acme barrels. I've posted pic's of this gun before but here's a couple just for you. Attached Image (viewed 238 times): |
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Larry Frey PGCA Member
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To view. Attached Image (viewed 239 times): |
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Larry Frey PGCA Member
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And the floor plate. Attached Image (viewed 238 times): |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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Larry's A 20ga is a particularly nice specimen. Look at the fleur de lis carving, the indented side panel with checkering, the wood to metal fit, the engraving, the case colors, it doesn't get any better than that. There are other nice guns, but this one is clearly toward the upper end. You see these attempted A grade upgrades, and compare them to an actual upper end gun like Larry's A, and the differences are quite apparent in almost every instance. Here is the 20ga D from the grip down. Attached Image (viewed 232 times): Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 01:18 pm by Bruce Day |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Bruce; My CHE has the dogs back on the " corners " of the receiver ,where the guns with the roundel engraving do , and also the Parker Brothers name in the scroll, but is minus the roundel ,It also has a Capped pistol grip, and CHE checkering ,but has Titantic Steel Barrels, have you seen this style of engraving before and do you happen to know any info. about it ? Russ |
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gill frye BBS Member
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Thanks Larry, very nice 20ga. |
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Dean Romig PGCA Member
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Bruce Day wrote: If anyone wants one, the ex-Vincent Holmes CHE Bernard 12ga is still for sale at Cabelas Dundee. Bruce, is that his two-barrel set or is it a different one? |
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Bill Murphy PGCA Member
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The "Gold Hearts" gun has a factory original gold heart in the ball grip and is the only D Grade gun I have seen with gold in the ball. I can't post pictures, but Austin may have some to post from the Parker Pages article on the gun. By the way, the restoration of "Cisco", the "Gold Hearts" gun, is complete and it was on display at the Southern. Don't panic, the restoration was limited to barrel refinishing, both steel and Damascus, and restoration of the skeleton buttplate. All of the gold plating remains in well worn original condition, and the wood has not been touched. |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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Your gun will likely be in the range between 86,811 and 156,622, before the C fluid steel changed to Acme. If you are saying that the dog engraving on the side panel is toward the back frame edge, that is uncommon. I have seen it before, but it is unusual. But, there is much variation in C's, and that's what makes them so interesting. One author wrote that C's are different than D's only because they have a band of engraving at the rear frame edge, otherwise, he could not tell the difference. To me, nothing could be further from the truth, or he must have looked at only a couple C's. Here is SN 65,557, a 12/10 set, with the usual side engraving. Sorry about the barrel breach gap. I have to push the top lever over on this one to close the gap, and didn't when I took the photo. This one has been my and before me, Austin's, project gun. Its a two barrel set with the others being 26" 10ga damascus. Attached Image (viewed 208 times): Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 02:32 pm by Bruce Day |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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Dean, that is a single double barrel. Its been at Cabelas for quite a while. Here is SN 136,503, a 12ga, also with the most common variety of side panel engraving. I also have a 16ga CHE with a 121 SN, same style side panel engraving. This style of engraving stayed relatively constant through the end, to 241,601. I see no need to post additional photos of those because they show the dogs in the same position. Attached Image (viewed 206 times): Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 02:12 pm by Bruce Day |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Bruce ; I will try to post a decent Pic. the gun has been recolored and I am not sure if the engraving has been polished thin or the darker colors of the gun ,but it is very hard to get a good Pic. of the engraving, the engraving feels deep to the touch but ,still it is difficult to get a good pic. Russ |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Well , I gave it a go , this is the first of three , Attached Image (viewed 199 times): |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Seconed; Attached Image (viewed 197 times): |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Bottom, and last. Attached Image (viewed 197 times): |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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Its a nice gun with good engraving Russ. Too bad it got bit by the tiger, but the colors can be toned down if you want without harm to the engraving. It is the unusual engraving, and the floor plate engraving is very nice also. I love looking at these C's, so well done and so much variety. I have a perfect wood duck on the bottom of a 20ga and Tom Carter has a perfect little woodcock on the bottom of a 12ga. I always thought it should be the other way around, but who can tell how Parker or its customers chose engraving themes ? I would call yours a variation on the rondel style, Russ. Its just like this one without the circle around the picture. This is 20ga SN 121, 835. I suspect yours is the same time period. The dogs appear to be done by the same hand. I'd be interested in your SN or date, suspect its 1900-1905. You have a wonderful gun, Russ. Attached Image (viewed 190 times): Last edited on Fri May 29th, 2009 03:27 pm by Bruce Day |
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Russ Jackson PGCA Member
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Bruce; Thank you , I knew by the posts the C grade guns are of interest to you,the serial is 121992, it is a 12 Bore 32 " gun with a capped pistol grip, and Titantic Steel barrels ,really tightly choked but it fits pretty well and I shoot it well ,I really liked your little 20, Ga. the first time I seen it posted and maybe you recall the thread ,I inquired then about it as its the first gun I had ever seen with the roundel engraving, you mentioned the Cabelas gun then and I contacted them and made an offer which they promptly turned down , after all this time ,maybe they wish they would have taken it ? I found this gun for a very good price and with the unique engraving style ,I just couldn't pass it up ! I agree with you on the striping ,it only shows on the left side, and not too bad when its away from the camera lens. Also the rest of the colors and the wood finish is very nice ! Russ |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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They are special guns, as new member Brian Dillard and others have found. The Cabelas gun is nice, its a 2 frame 12ga, over 8lb, Bernard. So many people want a light game gun, but that one could likely take store bought shells without concern with all that wall thickness. I know what they paid for it and its at or close to the bottom now, and I don't think they can budge on the price. I see all these posts about light loads for damascus, etc, etc, endless discussion, and if you have one of these 2 frame, heavier barreled guns, I don't think you need to be near as much concerned. I sure brought down a bunch of ducks last season with regular duck loads with the first gun I showed, SN 65, 557. Your SN date is consistant with the rondell dates I have found. I suspect they were all done by the same engraver. If we only had more information and could tie engravers in the early and mid years to particular guns. |
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Bill Murphy PGCA Member
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Bruce, if that ever happens, we'll have a renewal of Parker interest similar to the copying of the records. |
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Dean Romig PGCA Member
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Bill, I'm working on an article for PP that should help to put Parker engravers in a relative time frame with serial number ranges. |
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Bruce Day PGCA Member
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Dean, we know of Gough and of the senior Runge, and I and at least a few others think you can tell the senior Runge's work by its styling, but everything between is a blank. I look forward with interest to reading your work. |
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Brian Dillard Member
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Russ, great looking gun. I too like the style of engraving with the dog in the rear. Don't see so many of those as Bruce said....though seems he has a few in his stable as usual. Last edited on Sat May 30th, 2009 01:04 am by Brian Dillard |
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E Robert Fabian PGCA Member
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Scott's Kittredge's PH 26" Twist 1 1/2 frame PG Attached Image (viewed 116 times): |
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E Robert Fabian PGCA Member
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Scott's CH Attached Image (viewed 115 times): |
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E Robert Fabian PGCA Member
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Another Attached Image (viewed 114 times): |
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Brian Dillard Member
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E Robert Fabian wrote: Another Is that a flock of ducks on the bottom of that CH? That's a great look. |
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gill frye BBS Member
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That engraving on Scotts C looks just like mine, serial # 147523, I wonder what the number is to that gun? |
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scott kittredge BBS Member
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hi gill, the S/N on the CHE is 134695, scott Last edited on Sat May 30th, 2009 10:43 am by scott kittredge |
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Steve Huffman BBS Member
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Last edited on Sat May 30th, 2009 12:56 pm by Steve Huffman |
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Steve Huffman BBS Member
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Here is my common Ch engraving Attached Image (viewed 199 times): |
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Steve Huffman BBS Member
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Another Attached Image (viewed 200 times): |
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Larry Frey PGCA Member
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Steve there's nothing common about your gun at all. Every one of these old Parkers is a work of art for us to appreciate. Yours is a wonderful gun. |
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Steve Huffman BBS Member
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That you Larry, The C was My first Parker and what I ment about common is that from what I have seen is this is a more common of C engraving. Dont get me wrong I have the sickness, As I said My first.  |
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Derrick Stewart PGCA Member
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Larry, thanks for posting those pic's for me. She's a sweet little gem. Bruce, you gota love those C's with the roundel engraving. If I had the cash to spare I would have purchased that Bernard CH that Cabelas has. I understand Vincent traded it in on an English gun. Steve, there's nothing wrong with your gun. The one thing that is common with your's and alot of other C grade guns is the layout of the floorplate. |
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RICHARD L ANDERSON PGCA Member
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The CH Bernard gun at Cabelas has been refinished (wood ) and a new pad added. I also know what they have into the gun and as it was traded the actual cash investment might not be what you think it is. They made a good profit on the gun that it was traded for. It's not unheard of for them to sell at cost or below to move stale merchandise and this has been there for about a year. |
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