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Brad Steinfeld
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 11:52 am |
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I had planned to show Russ's work on my Hammer D 16 at the Vintagers this fall but
I would be selfish to not share the incredible conversion lug work that Russ did on my D hammer last fall since it has come up with interest here. This was one of the the first Parkers he did the conversion of a new style lug to the old style check hook lug which was called for on #49328 16 Bore that came to me with thin 24" cut barrels that were a lost cause. I was so fortunate to run across a 28" D 16 Damascus barrel F/F in great shape that proved to be an ideal replacement candidate with only the lug issue to deal with. (Thanks Dave) . After a lot of research into possible options that ranged from sending it off to Teague to just about all the other current possibilities, Don K mentioned what Russ had done on one of his own guns and I was shocked when I later saw the conversion results at last years Southern. Gave Russ my gun on the spot. Russ told me he has some better welding equipment and techniques in the works and felt he should be able to cut out the old hook and fabricate a new"old Style" hook in a more refined manner with the new equipment. To say that Russ's work exceeded my most optimistic expectations is a grand understatement and I'll let the pictures speak for themselves. The gun is tight as a drum.
Thanks Russ!
Brad
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer045.jpg?t=1243770001[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer046.jpg?t=1243770050[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer034.jpg?t=1243770079[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer038.jpg?t=1243770127[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer039.jpg?t=1243770147[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer042.jpg?t=1243770171[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer040.jpg?t=1243770191[/img]
[img]http://http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f385/Brad6260/Dhammer042.jpg?t=1243770258[/img]
Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 11:56 am by Brad Steinfeld
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 12:20 pm |
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Austin- I was at Griffin & Howe last week and I handled a new Purdey 30" 20 gauge hammer gun. Trust me, it "knows" whether the gun was fired or the hammers merely put down. How it knows I could not tell without taking it apart (as it is a $100,000 gun I didn't ask to...) I suspect there are recoil trips on the ejector mechanisms but that is only a guess. Paul Chapman wasn't around but I imagine he'd know the Audley House's secret. Purdey, of course, made ejector hammerguns from the 1890s on throught the 1930s Ripon, George V and probably a couple of dozen pigeon shooting traditionalists during these years preferred the ejector hammergun. Modern Italian ejector guns, I have handled also function "normally".
My 1887 Charles Smith (Newark-upon-Trent) was retro fitted with standard Southgate style ejectors at some point. This gun as you suspected doesn't "know". In the field this lack of internal intelligence is rather moot. I only lower hammer on a cocked gun when the action is open. The Smith opens when cocked so if one barrel has been fired I open the gun and the spent shell only ejects. I then remove the loaded shell just as I would with a non- ejector hammergun. In the gunroom, however, one must remember to either open the gun cocked or hold you hand over the opening breech otherwise snap caps fly!-Don
Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 09:01 pm by Don Kaas
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 12:23 pm |
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Brad,Thank you for posting this conversion.Very nice work indeed!Being a toolmaker for 29 years I appreciate nice machine work. Russ's work looks to be top notch.Since seeing Don's gun I have been thinking of fitting a set of 16 ga. barrels to my newly found 12 ga. one frame hammergun. The serial range is also in the late 40,000's.
Hmm...Time to get to work looking for some barrels..
Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 12:24 pm by Dave Suponski
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Dave....
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 08:28 pm |
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| I'm glad we are on an interesting subject, converting a Parker hammer gun to ejectors. With Don, Russ, and Austin involved, we should get a viable idea quickly. A recoil trip is an interesting concept, but how would it know which barrel or how many? The little pin thingys in a hammerless Parker could be used in a hammer gun, but do we really want a total duplication of the Parker system? Well, I guess we do since a Parker ejector forend is easier to find than is making a forend from scratch, or is it? Larry Del Grego Sr told me years ago that drilling the holes for the "thingy" can get even a good man in trouble. He didn't mention any names. I'm not much of a designer, so I'll leave that part to you fellows. To simplify the design, how about a system that ejects both barrels all the time, unless a cut off switch is activated. We catch our empties anyhow, right? When the action is hot and we are discarding empties, we always empty the gun, right? I've just talked myself into that kind of conversion if Russ agrees to take it on. You wouldn't even need split ejectors, or even a stop plate conversion, but you would need an ejector Parker forend to donate to the project. It would just tickle me to step to the mark at a pigeon shoot with a hammer Parker and after each bird, open the gun and watch the empies fly. Last edited on Sun May 31st, 2009 08:31 pm by Bill Murphy
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Sun May 31st, 2009 08:51 pm |
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Hammerless and hammer fore ends are slightly different at the back end. So I suspect any fabrication would be done as a modification of the existing hammer gun extractor fore end iron. Personally, if the project meant using the Parker ejector design, I doubt I would be interested, the Southgate style or almost any modern coil spring design would be preferable. The Parker system has too many parts and those parts are not readily available. The Model 21 ejector system would be preferable for example. Anything other than a proper selective ejector system would be a waste of time.
The problem with these projects is they tack on an inordinate amount of unrecoverable development time. Lots of people say they they'd do it but when the time comes and they are told it will cost $1500 to do the job the enthusiasts grow silent.
Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 12:42 pm by Don Kaas
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 10:06 am |
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| Brad, thanks for sharing those pictures of your enviable D grade hammer gun with us. I have hoped to get to see it ever since you hit "But It Now" on gunbroker and subsequently bought those nice barrels from Dave. Russ did an excellent job of joining those barrels to your gun and I hope to have Russ do some work for me. Will you be at Hausman's this weekend? Dean
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Austin W Hogan
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 02:33 pm |
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This is my third attempt to post this; good thing perhaps as the design has improved at each iteration.
I spent two hours waiting out the rain Sunday, and repaired the right lock on a very nice grade 2 lifter. It would not stay cocked, and my repair required two iterations of taking the lock work apart. I am pretty well convinced that triggering ejectors from Parker side locks would require some precision drilling of the stock that would be near impossible.
If someone really wanted an ejector hammergun, the easy way would be to fit a miniature Rem 11 87 gas cylinder between the barrels ahead of the flats. A gas piston could be connected to each barrel, and the barrel gas would cock a spring. Opening the action could release the spring, firing the ejector of the fired barrel. Since we only need to eject a fired empty, a pair of gas cylinders would probably fit in a 5/16 tube 2 inches long.
Best, Austin
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 03:25 pm |
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Drilling of the stock? Gas cylinders? Gosh, why didn't Purdey think of that?I'll take some photos of the Charles Smith ejector hammer gun tonight and post them. A very simple system...Austin- you really need to read Crudgington and Baker and see the almost innumerable ways this cat was skinned...
In the meantime, I just picked up #48,795, a 26" D2 0 frame toplever...I haven't seen it yet so...who knows? fingers crossed...
Last edited on Mon Jun 1st, 2009 07:45 pm by Don Kaas
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Brad Steinfeld
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 08:06 pm |
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Dean,
Unfortunately I will not be at Hausmans this weekend.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Mon Jun 1st, 2009 09:00 pm |
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| But you'll have it with you at the Annual Meeting?
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 01:38 am |
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| The innards of the Charles Smith ejector hammergun. Nothing unusual here, locks are "Stanton" style bar action springs, standard trips in the action knuckle, dropped hammers move levers within the action bar which move the trips and release the ejector sears which fire the ejector hammers in a very standard Southgate fore end with leaf springs. If there is a reason this modification could not be adapted to a Parker hammer gun, I fail to see it ...no precarious drilling to the stock is required and there is no more proven system of side x side shell ejection than the Southgate and its many variations... Attached Image (viewed 274 times):
 Last edited on Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 01:32 pm by Don Kaas
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 01:41 am |
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| Southgate ejectors...simplicity itself... why Parker did not use them (the patent had elapsed...) I do not know... Attached Image (viewed 273 times):
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 08:55 pm |
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| Just back from a run to Cabela's to view #48,795, a 26" D2 16g pg top lever I mentioned above. After a 102 mile round trip, I have to confess to some disappointment. Worn engraving on the action which did have the machined watertable, lengthened chambers (on a 0 frame, ouch!) and the barrels had been heavily honed in front of the chambers for a few inches the bore size was .690.and the bores still remained rough there..and the chokes .008 in both barrels. I have to assume the barrel wall thickness was likely compromised at the most critical spot and there were some deep nicks over the right chamber to add to the misery. The locks were sloppy. The barrels had been done but browned rather than the correct B&W. The wood was decent but nothing special and very low... This gun needed everything but it was a nice "ten footer", IMHO. I was told by one of the staff that a buyer for Cabela's had paid $6000 for this gun as they thought it was a D grade ("D" for Damascus was on the flats, of course). I was offered the gun at $3k...Let's see $2750 for Teague lining, restock, re-engraving, lock work, metal finishing...I don't think so... Last edited on Thu Jun 4th, 2009 08:56 pm by Don Kaas
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 10:02 pm |
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| $6000 paid by Cabela's for a brown ground down hammer gun? There is employment on the horizon for me after they weed out the bad blood at Hamburg. I haven't had a job for a few years and I'm getting a bit nervous about my 401K. Long commute, but maybe I'll just move.
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Thu Jun 4th, 2009 11:55 pm |
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| It was shipped in from another Cabelas store so the Hamburg boys are blameless. Actually, only the barrels are brown the rest is kind of shiney...
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Tom Carter
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 02:51 pm |
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Could someone please share contact information for Russ Bickle?
Thanks in advance. Tom Carter
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 05:27 pm |
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Don: tx for the pic of the Southgate ejector system. That IS truly simplicity at it's finest. I had never known what constituted that ejector system. I like it. I've never even had a Parker ejector system apart to see what they look like..... yet.....
I just searched Cabelas library for 48795 and it doesn't come up....
Last edited on Sun Jun 7th, 2009 05:31 pm by Richard Flanders
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Sun Jun 7th, 2009 07:47 pm |
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Richard- 48,795 was just on the inventory list of Cabelas Gonzales. It was not pictured in their Library website. It now is at the Hamburg store unless they returned it.
I was looking at the Purdey ejector hammergun at Hidden Hollow where it was on G&H's table. The Purdey ejectors "know" whether the hammers have just been let down or the gun has actually been fired due to a trip that actuates the ejectors only when the rebounding hammers go past "half cock". When you let the hammer down on a rebounding hammer gun you let it slowly down to half cock. When you pull the trigger to fire the gun the hammer snaps down past half cock to strike the firing pin and then "rebounds" to rest in the half cock position. That's how it "knows". My Charles Smith does not have this feature therefore it only "knows" if the hammer has moved off full cock. Simple when you think about it.
Last edited on Mon Jun 8th, 2009 12:46 pm by Don Kaas
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