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Brian Dillard
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 02:48 pm |
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Can you fire 2 3/4 shells in a 2 9/16th chamber? Obviously an older Parker, 1895 with twist bbls. Friend wanting to part ways with one he owns and thought I'd ask before jumping into the pool.
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 03:11 pm |
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| My 2-frame 1898 Titanic barreled DH 12 has 2 9/16" chambers and I regularly use 2 3/4" ammo but nothing heavy. It depends on frame size and the condition of the barrels. If you buy the gun, proceed with the utmost caution.
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 03:40 pm |
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| Provided your gun is in sound enough condition to safely shoot 2-9/16" shells of the proper PSI. It will handle 2-3/4" shells loaded to the same low pressure. It's the pressure of the load, that is more important than the extra length.
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Richard Flanders
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 04:35 pm |
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I agree with Dave. I wouldn't be putting any old 3-3/4dram 1-1/4oz duck loads in it but would not hesitate on low P handloads or light to moderate Pressure factory target loads. You'll just have to be cautious and, assuming of course that the bbls are sound, always know exactly what you're feeding it if it's 2-3/4" factory loads. Factory load pressures are available on at least some manufacturers websites. Winchester has a good reloading brochure/manual that lists theirs.
Last edited on Tue May 26th, 2009 04:37 pm by Richard Flanders
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Robin Lewis
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 05:43 pm |
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If you don't feel comfortable shooting 2 3/4 inch in it you could always step down to 2 1/2 inch low pressure shells, there are several manufactures of those out there.
It depends on how you intend to use it, the 2 1/2 inch shells cost more but for hunting or an occasional round of clays the added cost does not mount up to much.
I use 2 1/2 inch shells on my older guns, not so much because of the barrels but more to take it easy on the wood. I think that after a hundred years of aging and a little oil soaking into the wood, the wrist can weaken and it could fracture.
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Brian Dillard
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Posted: Tue May 26th, 2009 07:03 pm |
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Thanks for the "sound" advice. I'll post pics if I proceed to ownership.
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Jim Williams
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 05:14 am |
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Not to be too repetitive, but just wanted to add another vote for the good advice already given. The two things to be concerned with (in order of importance) are 1) Condition of the gun, including wall-thickness and severity of pitting, and 2) Actual pressure produced by the shells you intend to shoot.
Assuming, in the first point, that the gun is sound, the real question is the second point, "what pressure is safe?" There is no definitive answer and you must take responsibility for your own decisions, but there seems to be a consensus among knowledgeable, regular shooters of damascus barrels that 7000 psi is a fairly safe, conservative limit. This is based on duplicating the measured pressures of the original black powder loads the guns were designed for. There have been published tests that show that the increase in pressure caused by firing a 2-3/4 in. shell in a 2-9/16 in. chamber will be small enough to keep the total pressure within a safe limit provided that the pressure of that particular load is appropriate for the gun in question. Put another way, if a 2-3/4 in. load produces no more than, say 7000 psi when fired in a 2-3/4 in. chamber, it will provide slightly higher pressure in a 2-9/16 chamber but not enough of an increase to take it out of the range of safety. As I remember, 2-3/4 in. shells in 2-1/2 in. chambers provided an average increase in pressure of something on the order of 10%, sometimes a little more or less depending on the load. It should also be noted that individual rounds of the same load can nearly vary that much in pressure tests.
Jim
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Erick Dorr
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 06:57 pm |
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Brian,
I have a PH twist with bbls in good shape that I have shot a couple of times with 2-3/4" RST low pressure shells and with some Remington loads from Walmart. I am under the impression that the chambers are 2-5/8" but I can't be sure how I know that now. At home, I generally use the actual lengths of a 2-3/4 inch loaded shell and a 3 inch loaded shell to measure chamber length. The "3" inch shell is something like 2-21/32". If it doesn't fit it isn't a 2-3/4" chamber.
I've shot maybe six boxes of RSTs and as many Remingtons with no problems. I just haven't started reloading yet which is the best route using low pressure recipes.
Erick
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Brian Dillard
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 09:16 pm |
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Great advice from all, again I thank you for the comments and time. Headed over for a round or two of single malt and discussion on the purchase today.
Brian
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Wed May 27th, 2009 11:13 pm |
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Erick Dorr wrote: Brian,
I have a PH twist with bbls in good shape that I have shot a couple of times with 2-3/4" RST low pressure shells and with some Remington loads from Walmart. I am under the impression that the chambers are 2-5/8" but I can't be sure how I know that now. At home, I generally use the actual lengths of a 2-3/4 inch loaded shell and a 3 inch loaded shell to measure chamber length. The "3" inch shell is something like 2-21/32". If it doesn't fit it isn't a 2-3/4" chamber.
I've shot maybe six boxes of RSTs and as many Remingtons with no problems. I just haven't started reloading yet which is the best route using low pressure recipes.
Erick
Erick,
I have a couple Twist barrel Parkers, and I wouldn't shoot any Remington loads from Wallyworld in my guns. They aren't low pressure. But you do what you feel comfortable with. I know others on this site who do. Ya Bruce. 
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David Hamilton
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 12:14 am |
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| Brian, There are shells from B&P which are a bit shorter than our 2 3/4" standard as well as a low pressure shell called Sub-Sound which are 2 5/8". These and the Competition 2000 low velocity loads are fine in old guns in good condition. B&P will ship to you free? So they say. They are good shells. David
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Brian Dillard
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 12:19 am |
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David Hamilton wrote: Brian, There are shells from B&P which are a bit shorter than our 2 3/4" standard as well as a low pressure shell called Sub-Sound which are 2 5/8". These and the Competition 2000 low velocity loads are fine in old guns in good condition. B&P will ship to you free? So they say. They are good shells. David
David,
Can you give me an email or contact info on B&P?? Thanks, that's a good lead.
B
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Dave Miles
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Posted: Fri May 29th, 2009 10:51 am |
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Brian,
If your going to buy shells, buy the RST's.
http://www.rstshells.com/shells.htm
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David Hamilton
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 05:41 pm |
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| bandpusa.com will each B&P web site. RST is made in USA but expensive. B& P has backed off their high lead prices and the free shipping is nice. David
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 06:55 pm |
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Brian, see TPS, p. 515 for the service and proof pressures used by Parker. A 2 3/4" shell factory loaded, for a working service limit mean of 10,500 and max of 12,000. Proof mean was 15,900. Service and proof mean pressures in the pre 1900 hammer era were less; I don't know those.
Parker patterned 12ga guns at either 1 1/8oz or 1 1/4oz at 3 1/4dre, regardless of barrel composition.
Most shells you buy commercially are below 10,500. The Rem duck loads I shoot through my damascus guns run about 9,500. A hot trap load will run about 10,000 psi.
Parker proofed all barrels the same, regardless of composition. There is a letter advising about different wear characteristics, but not rupture strength. Parker continued to use damascus barrels until 1927 ( the last found so far).
Some people like to suggest that damascus barrels are for black powder, and by extension, fluid steel for nitro. In truth, both barrel compositions are for shooting cartridges of certain pressures, with the pressure service limits and proof limits as used by Parker.
We have people with their own ideas about using low pressure loads for damascus. Those ideas are based upon their beliefs, not Parker use data, and reflect their own thoughts about gentle use for old guns or what is most easy on their shoulders. I like soft shooting also, but my guns, damascus and fluid, can handle a lot more than I like to shoot.
If you have a gun with sound, thick barrels ( a typical original Parker 12ga wall thickness is about .035) and sound stock wood, I see nothing preventing a person from using Parker original cartridge pressures. I do and have for quite a few years.
Be careful with those light fluid steel barrels. I saw an acquaintance last month, new top end Spanish gun, less than 60 shells through it, blown left barrel into his hand. Cast, painful, took pictures, probably legal proceedings. I think he said that wall thickness was about .020 . That's why the gun was light. People want these light game guns, but it comes at a price.
Last edited on Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 11:06 pm by Bruce Day
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C Roger Giles
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Posted: Tue Jun 2nd, 2009 10:47 pm |
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My only complaint about the Remington Black loads is they are dirty as hell, lots of black residue, just check how dirty your gloves or hands become after a round of clays, otherwise they shoot just fine.
Roger
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David Hamilton
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 12:23 am |
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| Bruce, You are quite correct as usual about Parker guns. As for the pressures one can shoot in an old gun, much depends on condition. Many guns have thinner barrel wall thickness than when they left the factory. Such guns must be an especial class in which pressure resistance will be less than the original proof by the factory. I have such guns and I shoot them and enjoy target shooting with low pressure loads. David
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 01:17 am |
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David, that's a fair statement. I see people automatically assuming that because its damascus, it was designed or made for black powder, or that one has to shoot low pressure loads. Its not so. Parker was making these things in the teens and twenties and had been proofing them with nitro for years. They weren't designed for a powder, they were designed for a pressure. And they were making the barrels for loads that "shot hard" to use Parker's expression. We've also heard that black burned slower than nitro, then the tests in the DGJ found just the opposite.
My experience is with post 1900 barrels, I don't own a hammer gun and the only pre 1900 gun I own is a heavy 1889 Bernard 12 that I could load sticks of dynamite in. I also appreciate that there are all kinds of nitro, bulk nitro to great selections of fast or slow burning, etc.
Now if you have a bored out barrel, that's different, the key is to know your barrels. I have 12's that range from .028 to .045, and both are 30" 12ga 2 frame Bernards. Popular statements suggest not going below .025, but the Brits find guns passing proof with .020. A friend measured his new Rem 870 barrels and found .054 and its like its a piece of galvanized pipe out there. Those Spanish light game guns get down in the low twenties, but it can come at a safety price in my opinion. Over and over I've seen original Parker barrels at 032, 034, 035, very comfortable, very strong, and I feel comfortable shooting loads through it that I like.
Last edited on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 01:23 am by Bruce Day
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Bruce Day
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Richard Flanders
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 02:33 am |
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I think you're right Bruce. I generally shoot lighter loads through my lighter barreled damascus guns but know they would handle heavier loads... I just don't like to shoot heavy loads. I have, however, shot a lot of stiff old duck loads through my oldest Parker, an 1883 twist bbled hammer gun. It has very stout bbls and seems to handle them without complaint and I don't worry one bit about them blowing. I doubt they're as stout as your Bernard bbls, but aren't much less so. That old gun really reaches out with 3-3/4dram 1-1/4oz loads and 32" bbls. If I ever hunted ducks with my 1903 #2 framed DH12 I would not worry about using the same loads.
Last edited on Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 02:35 am by Richard Flanders
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Wed Jun 3rd, 2009 02:53 am |
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| Exactly. You can use these things as they were made to be used, and without babying them. If you shoot light loads, its because you want to, not because you need to.
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Bruce Day
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