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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 02:48 pm |
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| There appear to be at least two schools of thought regarding 1/2 frame Parkers; one salivates over them while the other remain relatively unmoved by the 1/2 frame. Do we know roughly how many were produced in all grades? What are your opinions on collectability/value of a very late 1/2 frame DHE vs. a very late 1 1/2 frame DHE in equal condition?
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 03:09 pm |
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Dean, I've hefted and shot them both, and own a late 1 1/2 frame. A few years ago, there was an article by Austin Hogan in the PP's which I think provides the best factual analysis. In summary, 1/2 frame guns provided a weight advantage of a few ounces in 26" barrel length only. For 28" s the weight was the same. Now maybe there were insufficent guns to do much of a survey, but the results point to an insubstantial difference in weight. My straight grip 12ga 28" 1 1/2 frame weighed the same ( 7lbs 1 oz) as a 12ga 28" 1/2 frame pistol grip that I waived about at the Denver show a couple years back. The 1/2 frame was a nice DHE that sold later for $12,000.
The 1/2 is slimmer to hold in the hand with your fingers wrapped around it and that has appeal for some, but when pulling up to shoulder and sighting down the line, I didn't notice anything really different because the barrel breach end width seemed the same.
There is ample evidence that there are many 1/2 guns that weigh more than 1 1/2 frames. A lot of late Remington Parkers had beavertail forearms, and that really adds weight, cancelling out any potential advantage of the 1/2 frame. Puglisi had or has a late 1/2 frame gun that weighs 8 lbs.
If you really want a light 12, the lightest I've seen are the splinter forend,straight grip 1 frame guns with extractors. They will go maybe 6lb 10-12oz in 26 or 28. Several people here have them.
As to your other questions, I am not aware of a grade count or total count being conducted, and I don't know how it could be done. For collectibility, I think there is a certain cachet for 1/2 frames, but I don't know that it is warranted and to me each gun has to stand on its own merits.
Last edited on Wed May 13th, 2009 03:14 pm by Bruce Day
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 04:17 pm |
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| Parker frame sizes are usually only mentioned in the stock books. The stock books end at 238,934. Most half frames are in the Ilion era, higher numbers than the stock books include. There is not much hope to document half frames unless they are listed in the stock books. As Bruce suggests, half frames are all over the map in weight, but the frame is about the same as a #1 until you get to the forearm area, so it is somewhat (not much) more compact than the 1 1/2 frame. The stock size that is installed on the gun makes a big difference. The half frames that are of trap gun configuration probably have #1 1/2 or #2 frame size stocks. My half frame DHE, for instance, has a 00 frame size stock and only weighs 6 1/2 pounds with 28" 16 gauge barrels. The baby stock on my gun may be the stock that is installed on more than a few half frames, but I haven't inspected enough half frames to know. Oddly, the width of half frame breech balls as specified in TPS differs from the #1 frame measurement by 1/16". However, the early Parker Brothers blueprint for half frame guns specifies that this measurement will be the same for half and #1 frame barrels. Number one frame barrels fit perfectly on my half frame gun with identical breech ball width. I think Harry Sanders once compared a stripped half frame to a stripped 1 1/2 frame. Maybe he would remind us of what he found about the weight comparison. In my opinion, the price difference between the half and other frames on identical guns is all in the rarity factor, not the handling or feel of the gun. Last edited on Wed May 13th, 2009 04:24 pm by Bill Murphy
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 04:24 pm |
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| I understood that all known 1/2 frame guns are factory made with 12ga barrels. Are you saying your 1/2 frame was factory made with 16ga barrels?
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 04:26 pm |
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| No, my half frame was made with 12 gauge barrels which are missing. The barrels on the gun now are 28" 16 gauge Parker Special Steel barrels which fit perfectly without being filed. We don't know that no half frame guns were made in sixteen gauge since the original Parker Brothers blueprints called for the half frame to be "a light weight 12 or 16 gauge gun". Contrary to what most researchers believed, the half frame was not a Remington development. Last edited on Wed May 13th, 2009 04:28 pm by Bill Murphy
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed May 13th, 2009 04:56 pm |
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| I've handled fewer than five 1/2 frame Parkers and do not know of any in sixteen gauge - in fact, was unaware that it was developed for "a lightweight 12 or 16 gauge gun" as Bill informs us. I would really like to see and handle a 1/2 frame sixteen.
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RICHARD L ANDERSON
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:01 am |
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Dean,
I'll be bringing a late (Illion) DHE 1 1/2 frame gun to HH in June. Its a str grp, sst, btf and VR with 28 in tubes. Your welcome to shoot it and compare it with the late production 1/2 frame.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:15 am |
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Maybe the person who so generously provided me with the 1930 half frame blueprint could scan it to this thread so everyone would better understand what I have been trying to explain about the wonderful little guns that seem to attract so much attention. The blueprint tells how various dimensions of several different frame sizes are blended into one neat little gun. That neat little 12 gauge is even a neater little 16 gauge, especially when coupled with a 00 size stock. Actually, the skeleton butt on the 16 gauge half frame is quite a bit smaller than the buttplate on my .410 VHE Skeet. I don't know why, I just know that's the way it is.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:19 am |
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| Maybe our historian/researcher would examine the last stock book to see how many half frames exist prior to the 238,934 last gun in the existing stock books. Also, are any half frames identified as such on the IBM cards? I kind of doubt it, having spent many hours fooling with the IBM cards without noticing such frame size identification.
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:20 am |
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Here ya go Bill  Attached Image (viewed 191 times):
 Last edited on Thu May 14th, 2009 12:21 am by Dave Suponski
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:33 am |
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| Yes, our own Dave Suponski is the person who assisted me in giving provenance to my great little half frame by sending me the 1930 blueprint copy. Without barrels, my half frame was just another late Remington Parker since the barrel lug carries the half frame marking. Dave's blueprint assisted me in identifying the measurements that make a half frame what it is. The blueprint also prodded me to try my #1 frame 16 gauge barrels on the DHE receiver since the blueprint alluded to the fact that the #1 barrels are used on the half frame prototypes. Thanks, Dave.
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Bill Murphy
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:35 am |
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| Oh, by the way, what do you guys think about the "lightening cuts" on the blueprint? Has anyone seen a half frame with lightening cuts? I'm waiting for one to come "Out of Pennsylvania" any day now since the blueprint has been outed.
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Dave Suponski
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 12:40 am |
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| Bill...With all you contribute to this forum...thats the least I could do. My pleasure.
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Harry Sanders
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Posted: Thu May 14th, 2009 04:37 pm |
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Bill the comparison that was done was the 0, 1/2, 1 frames. By Ron and I and all my info is at home so I'll check over the weekend. I don't recall that frame weights were involved, but do recall the speculation/discussion at the time that Parker never marked frame sizes on the frames, and then the 1/2 frame marking was in the article. It was in PP a number of years back.
Added 5/16/09 - No weight data was recorded on the frames.
Last edited on Sun May 17th, 2009 12:17 am by Harry Sanders
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