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tbu62
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 09:05 am |
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I have a 20ga DHE Repro, (IMP Cyl/MOD) absolutely delighted with it's performance I am curious if it would be prudent to try Slug or Buckshot, (for Whitetail deer). Can anyone here provide input, or experience?
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Jeff Kuss
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 02:04 pm |
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We would be glad to help you. First you need to register with your real name.
Jeff Kuss Moderator
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Todd Unger
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 04:11 pm |
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OK, I think I got it right now. Sorry, I am new to this computer stuff, assume I will eventually figure it out, (after all computers are simple, so I am told). Is there anything else I need to do?
Todd
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Richard Flanders
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 06:26 pm |
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If you're worried about damaging your chokes you might search this forum under my name for a thread from last winter(?) or the winter before where I took slug shells apart and measured the diameters. There was one brand that was significantly smaller than the others if I remember right. I'll have to search to see if I still have the picture I posted. I think it was a Foster type slug but can't remember the brand. I'll repost something here if I find anything myself. I can't imagine a problem shooting a slug out the IC bbl, but others may chime in with more knowledge than I have on the subject.
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Kenny Graft
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Posted: Sun Oct 26th, 2008 09:17 pm |
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| I have found a diet of rifled slugs in SXS guns is not a good idea....to mutch recoil and will soon crack stocks in the wrist and upper tang. Im not going to experiment with a repro to see if it will take the extra recoil. Let me know..Kenny Graft in ohio (-:
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Mon Oct 27th, 2008 12:58 am |
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There are many states where certain areas have been designated as shot gun only hunting areas and here in Me this began to happen awhile back. I have deer hunted for many years and saw that I would probably have to add a shot gun to my quiver to be able to hunt some of the places I came to enjoy for deer hunting, my first purchase was a Model 11 Remington (the war years Browning patent style) in 20 ga.
As I perused the variety of slug loads for the 20 I purchased several boxes of each so I could test fire the gun and come up with a load I would be comfortable with, i.e. one that I felt had the right amount of knock down power and accuracy for a given range.
I also did the same for buckshot loads since I wasn't sure which would be me choice until I could see the results on paper.
What I soon found out was the gun I had didn't really like any of the slugs I had purchased, none were very accurate after 35 yards with the Mod choke I had and I wasn't sure they even had the power for a clean ethical kill. The buckshot loads fared better out to 50 yards but there was a large difference between the .24 cal of #4 Buck and .32 cal 0f 0 Buck not to mention how few pellets there were in a 20 ga load.
I have known folks who used buckshot for their deer hunting specifically my late hunting partner who used a Savage Fox Grade B 12 ga who was generally very successful each year. I did notice he'd have to shoot the animal several times which of course means nore damage to the meat and to be totally honest I don't feel buckshot deer die very quickly.
I hunted with my 20 and had one good shot opportunity which I took and ended up with a doe that went unscathed as I quickly found out how much energy is absorbed when brush is placed in the equation and slow moving pellets deflect a lot as well, I was thankful the deer was not injured since a quick, clean and ethical kill is what I try for. I sold the gun at the end of the hunting season and decided if I were to shoot a shot gun the minimum would be a 12 ga.
I ended up with a Browning Twelvette 12 ga which had a 1 x Weaver Scope on it as the past owner used slugs in it for deer hunting. Once again I purchased several brands and went to the range to find out what I, and the shot gun, could do. I quickly found the Browning to be far more accurate than the 20 ga Remington and came up with a good load that I used with great success for several years. Then great strides in slug loads came up and the world of shot gun hunting was getting a lot of attention.
After a lot of reading and research I found the new fully rifled barrels to give rifle like accuracy when coupled with the sabot slugs they shot (a 12 ga would have a sabot jacket that fits the bore of the 12 ga and houses a .50 cal bullet) so I was fortunate to get a barrel made by Hastings for my Browning Twelvette and watched the accuracy go through the roof, what I was getting at 50 yards with conventional slugs was now capable of being performed at 100 yards using sabot slugs and 125 yard effective clean kills were as well, I upgraded the 1x Weaver to a Leupold Vari X III 1.5-5x and had an excellent hunting companion.
My hunting partner was always a little jealous of my one shot kills and the range at which I could use my Browning. I explained that his Savage was still a fine firearm but the loss of gases and sealing of the slug from his to mine were different. He said he was never happy with slug performance in his shot gun but the buckshot was quite accurate, I told him I don't think that would be uncommon at all and found the accuracy of my Hastings far superior but was sure given the right combination any firearm could be more accurate with one load vs another it just took time to experiment to find the right one.
He asked if I thought my sabot slugs would work in his Savage and I told him sabot slugs don't work like conventional slugs. A conventional slug gets its rotation in the barrel from the ridges it has which stabilized the round prior to exiting the barrel, sabots get theirs from the rifling either in the barrell or from the choke tube specially designed for their use. Since his Savage had removable tubes I told him he would need one to try and see if it would work since one barrel may perform better than the other and he already knew how each performed with buckshot he'd then use that barrel for buckshot and the other for slugs.
He got the screw in choke and several boxes of 3" Remington Copper Sabot Slugs even though I told him he would be better to stick with the 2 3/4" ones since everything I read about the 3" showed they were poor performers when compared to the 2 3/4" loads. We were proven correct in the poor performance of the 3" loads but did find his right barrel shot sabots better than his left barrel did so I broke out several boxes of my 2 3/4" Remingtons for him to try and he had a rather satisfactory session with good groups to 65 yards although nowhere near the 2 1/2" 100 yard groups my Twelvette could produce. I also borrowed some of his buckshot while we were at the range and tried my 1903 12 GA DHE Parker to see how it performed and was quite surprised.
We both took deer that fall, he with a sabot and I with the DHE and buckshot but it took more shots than I would care to admit to and would not use it to hunt deer again even though it's a fantastic performer on rabbits, squirrels and birds I find it anemic for deer with buckshot and will stick with my Twelvette. I'm not saying you will find similar results if you decide to use a SxS for deer hunting it's just my experience.
Best of luck.
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Albert Zinn
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 03:01 pm |
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Mr. Giuliani:
"...A conventional slug gets its rotation in the barrel from the ridges it has which stablilized the round prior to exiting the barrel...."
I'm sorry, Sante, but that is a common "old hunter's wives tale" regarding the traditional Foster-style slug.
The angled ribs on the slug impart zero rotation to the slug as it goes down the barrel. Their main function is to make the outside of the slug flexible so that it can go thru a wide variety of bore diameters and chokes and give reasonable accuracy at typical woods ranges i.e 35-50 yards, without damaging the barrels of the guns.
Foster slugs fly nose forward without any rotation, by virtue of their weight forward design. They have obviously been outmoded by modern rifled guns shooting sabot-style slugs, but they killed millions of deer and are still capable of doing so, within their range limitations.
The German Brenneke is an improvement on this design that still functions basically the same way.
Either would be safe for use in a traditionally choked gun, but Mr. Grafts comment about recoil in light double guns is well taken.
Speaking of recoil, doesn't a Twelvette beat you up a bit also, with sabot slugs?
Regarding buckshot: no deer deserves to be killed that way. Simple as that.
Regards,
Al Zinn
Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 03:03 pm by Albert Zinn
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Don Kaas
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 03:26 pm |
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I echo Mr. Zinn's reply especially regarding buckshot and the 20g. There are better ways to kill deer. Having said that, the largest whitetail I ever personally saw (230 lb. field dressed on the scale) was killed by a 12 year old boy with an 20g 1100 and a Remington slug. Most of my farm is in a shotgun only area. I do not let my guests use buckshot and I make them test fire their gun to show most of them how inaccurate most field shotguns are with slugs-especially sxs guns. I then put them in a treestand and hope for the best... Last edited on Tue Oct 28th, 2008 03:27 pm by Don Kaas
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 08:26 pm |
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Thanks for clarifying the Foster Style slug stabilization I just told him what I had read so long ago. The Brenneke and Gualandi Slugs were what I used prior to having the Hastings barrel added to my Twelvette. While the conventional Twelvette might impart more recoil (they were mainly alloy receiver guns) mine is the all steel version made first year of production 1954 and not as tough to handle as you would think the addition of a rifle sling and scope helps. Having sub 2 1/2" 5 shot groups at 100 yards means one shot usually does what it's intended to do with proper shot placement.
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"Fly fishing is my Quisisana" Italian for "place where one heals one's self."
Visit my website on bamboo rods
Fishnbanjos Place
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Albert Zinn
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 09:27 pm |
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Sante:
Thanks for your reply. Your gun is not a "twelvette" then. Is is a standard weight.
There was also a "twentyweight" model with hollowed stock. Six pound 12 ga!
Definitely not a slug gun.
Great guns!
Take care.
Al Zinn
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Sante Giuliani
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Posted: Tue Oct 28th, 2008 09:42 pm |
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I don't think a lighter version would be any fun this is quite manageable though.
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Todd Unger
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Posted: Wed Oct 29th, 2008 02:12 am |
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Thanks to all for the input.
I have many other choices in my gun vault for deer, but was wondering about the DHE for a very specific location where ranges can never exceed 35 yards, and the deer are plentiful.
The slug of choice will be measured, all rounds carefully selected for velocity, and weight, (thus resultant recoil). Buckshot will accompany, in the MOD barrel for a range-permitting shot. I shall limit shooting to accuracy/pattern testing, and ONE memorable hunt, anticipating not more than 5 or 6 rounds ever fired.
I have a 1938 20 Ga. Ithaca 37 with a 26" MOD BBL, that consistently shoots slugs with wonderful accuracy at 50 yards, hoping for a fraction of that performance from my Reproduction DHE.
"Modern" slugs have adequate power at this distance, (given adequate accuracy) which I shall test prior to the hunt.
I agree on the "rotational issue", (wives tale) about rifled slugs. Have seen a high speed/slow motion video clip somewhere on the net. The film was specifically done to dispel the notion that slugs generate rotation in smooth barrels. All major brands and designs were filmed, none of them gained any rotation worthy of mention.
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Forrest Smith
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 12:26 am |
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Buckshot is absolutely lethal on deer out of the right gun to 50 yds.
The comment of it taking several shots to kill a deer with buckshot is just not the reality of it. I've killed many deer, hogs, and even nilgai antelope with buckshot at short ranges-it is absolutely lethal at reasonable ranges-but the pellets lose energy and penetration past the 55-60 yd mark. At ranges less than 30 yards #1 and #4 buckshot are wickedly lethal, a buck will NOT be on his feet or alive when hit.
My deer gun growing up in the Texas Hill country was a 3" magnum Beretta Silver Hawk double choked Full & Full. 3" #1 or #4 buckshot loads killed many a deer with that setup. My dad's deer gun now is a Model 12 duck gun, choked full,, with 3" #1 buck and its killed several good deer up to 40 yards, and none were left standing afterward. Think about the effect of simultaneously being hit with 20-30 .24 caliber projectiles (#4 buck)-it flat out kills.
If you have doubts read a little Archibald Rutledge, I believe he killed a couple deer with buckshot & doubles himself. Guess what most PHs in Africa use for lethality on wounded leopards -I don't think they would mess around with something that didn't kill well? Just be sure the gun can take the load.
FS
Last edited on Thu Oct 30th, 2008 12:33 am by Forrest Smith
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Richard Flanders
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Posted: Thu Oct 30th, 2008 12:50 am |
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I have only one experience with deer and buckshot. I watched my father shoot a running Michigan whitetail buck at 35-45yds with our mod 37 Ithaca with full choke and OO-buck. One shot. When we found it we found that one pellet had hit it in the liver. It made it about 100yds before laying down and dying. I've never forgotten that one. I don't use buckshot except in a short pump for bear protection sometimes, but was impressed at what that one 'golden pellet' did to that 9-pt, 219# dressed buck... Had that one pellet hit differently it could have run a long ways and died a slow death and we would not have found it.
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