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Tim Gautreaux
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 03:46 am |
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Hi,
I've got a Parker 10 ga. hammer gun, #3 frame, 24xxx, that's a little loose in the breech. I shoot it with gauge mates with B&P 12 ga. sub sound loads (1000 fps). I don't notice any ill effects, except on the skeet, but are there safety issues I should consider? The gun is a lifter model.
Tim Gautreaux
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James T. Kucaba
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 08:31 am |
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Tim: ... Just send the gun to Doug Turnbull ... Unlke some of the other guys Doug will do the job correctly ... The first time.
Jim Kucaba ... Phoenix AriZOona ... Email: JimKucaba@aol.com
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Harry Collins
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 11:49 am |
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Tim,
I have the same complaint on several of my Parkers. The quick fix for fore and aft movement, one that I have not abandoned for a permanent solution, is to cut a brass shim the with of the hinge pin, curl it around a pencil and clip it onto the hing pin. The gun locks up tight. Sheets of brass shim can be found at the hardware store in packages of various widths for a few $'s. Up and down movement requires another fix and should be put into the hands of an expert as James recommends.
Harry
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Harry Collins
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 11:50 am |
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| Anothr view Attached Image (viewed 588 times):
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Harry Collins
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 11:50 am |
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paul harm
PGCA Member
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 03:58 pm |
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| Tim , you'll want to do something to tighten it up . If you keep shooting it as is , it will only get worse because now the barrels are " slaming " back against the breech . Put in some shim stock , or send it out . Paul
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 09:27 pm |
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I agree with James. Send it out and have it properly repaired. Placing shim stock on the hinge pin simply moves the barrels back to the breach face. its a fix that has the potential to cause more damage. It does not allow for 2 thou. spring space between the barrel flat and the water table. Without the spring space tha gun will soon shoot loose. I recommend H.G. Lomas Gun Makers of Elkhart Lake, WI. Hugh has put a number of my guns back on face and on bolt. He currently has my G grade hammergun. He charges around $300.00. Well worth the fee. His work is flawless.
Phil
Last edited on Tue Dec 5th, 2006 09:28 pm by Phil Murphy
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Tim Gautreaux
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 02:37 am |
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Thanks to everyone for the excellent advice about remedies for the loose breech on my Parker 10 hammer gun. My main question, however, concerned safety, and since no one mentioned anything about it, it must not be an issue.
Again, thanks,
Tim Gautreaux
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Dean Romig
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 03:01 am |
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Tim, we're learning more and more about shooting "modern" loads in Damascus barreled guns lately from people like Sherman Bell and from the benign experiences of people on this board as well as some on the other board with shooting these old guns. Generally speaking, if the bores are in good shape, i.e. no serious pitting, severe dents and barrel wall thickness is sufficient, shooting light, low-pressure loads appears to be okay. Still, the gun should be examined and measured by an expert before doing so and this is certainly not to be construed as any sort of endorsement to go ahead and shoot it without fear of any kind of ill effects. Further, low velocity loads don't necessarily translate to low pressure loads but there are ammo companies that produce low pressure loads that provide very acceptable velocities in the 1100-1200 fps range.
Dean
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Tom Bria
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 09:35 pm |
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| OK, Tim, here is the safety issue. If you continue to use the gun while it's loose, it may eventually cause the gun to self-destruct. On some of the early guns there was a sharp included angle between the water table and the standing breech, and cracks appeared there on some early guns that were shot a lot. When the frame finally cracks (if it cracks) there is the chance that it could be a catastrophic failure. You are probably OK, but why risk it? On later guns, the sharp angle was changed to a small radius to prevent this cracking. Even on a later gun, shooting it loose is not good for the gun. All of this is separate from the issue of pressures in older guns with twist/Damascus barrels.
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Austin Hogan
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 12:21 am |
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Tim;
The lack of radius at the water table/standing breech intersection is only found on low s/n guns. The radius was incorporated in the 15000 - 20000 serial range. All top actions should have the radiused intersection.
It should be noted that the Research Committee has found many instances of new frames being furnished to Parker customers at no charge. There is no entry relative to cause of frame trouble, but it may be due to softness, resulting from incomplete heat treat in the case hardening process.
It might be best to measure possible frame distortion before venturing a hook and roll rebuild.
Best, Austin
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Tim Gautreaux
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 02:45 am |
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Hi,
Thanks for the information. I know a few things about metallurgy and believe I'll keep shooting my 5900 psi loads in my #3 frame with no fear of driving a bolster into my brain pan.
cheers,
Tim Gautreaux
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Roger Whitfield
PGCA Member
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 03:26 pm |
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| Tim if you would just send that ticking time bomb to me I will make sure you don't get harmed by it. I have a slot for it beside my 12 gauge Trojan that is 100% on face and has "ZERO SPRING SPACE" at the water table which according to one poster renders my gun soon to be unsafe. Spring space sounds like a phrase coined by a "barrelsmith" as an excuse for being unable to refit barrels to the same tolerance that Parker used. Yesterday I had the pleasure of examining what is no doubt the most worn out Parker gun on this planet, the barrels rattled like a bucket of bolts giving a whole new meaning to "off face". From the time this gun went from being a little loose like Tims gun to where it is today it surely fired several thousand rounds and likely put a ton of meat on the table. I would like to see a thread documenting any known failures of frames of Parker guns. I do not condone the shooting of unsafe guns and this post was merely an observation of the spectrum of wear found on some of the Parkers still around today.....RW
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Thu Dec 7th, 2006 03:41 pm |
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Roger,
You are very mistaken about spring space. I never stated that your gun, or any gun was unsafe, because it lacked spring space. Rather, your gun will most likely shoot loose, in a short time. Without spring space the spring of the action, upon firing, is tranfered directly to surfaces of the breach and hinge. The metal surfaces compress and distort. In no time your action is loose. It is a requirement to maintain 2 thou. space between the barrel flats and the watertable. If you don't think that this is correct, direct your inquiries to an American Gunmakers Guild gunsmith. Try Dave Norin, Dennis Potter or Travellion. You may also want to call Tony Galazon.
Its one thing to hack one's own firearm. Its very bad form to provide that same hack advise to others on this forum. Please do a little research before providing any other information.
Phil
Last edited on Thu Dec 7th, 2006 07:48 pm by Phil Murphy
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Roger Whitfield
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 12:09 am |
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| Phil, I did considerable research on the term "spring space" as it relates to a double barreled shotgun and came up empty so maybe you could direct me to the source of this terminology. I didn't hack a Parker or any other gun as you inferred, I just checked the spring space on a very low mileage Trojan gun that I have owned for over 40 years and yes it was exactly .0004", four ten thousandths of an inch after firing less than a box of shells since leaving the Parker Gun Works in 1930 so I guess nobody is perfect ....RW P.S. Harry I will take a dozen of those magic shims as soon as the next shipment is ready..
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Phil Murphy
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 12:41 am |
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Roger,
Its a shame that your Trojan isn't fitted up very well. I assume that Parker produced a wide range of tolerances, based upon the amount of time that they could afford to spend on the gun. That said, the fact the spring space is a requirement for a well fitted doublegun remains. I've refered you to several practical sources. The rest is up to you.
Phil
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paul harm
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 02:39 pm |
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| I never knew of "spring " , or realized all the different forces when a rotating breach action gun is fired . [ Did I say that right ?] A friend gave me a book to read , which I passed on to a friend , that explained all this . Very interesting reading . Yes there is a clearence between the water table and barrels because they flex when the gun is fired . Old W. Greener believed so much in muzzleloaders , he bad mouthed the breechloaded saying they'd never hold up . And at first they didn't , because gun makers didn't completely understand all the forces taking place . But they learned where to leave a clearence , and where to radius . If the gun that's loose is shot it will get worse - how fast I have no idea , but it should be fixed one way or the other . It's like driving a car with bad shocks - all that banging around wears out the ball joints and tie rods just that much quicker . Then you're in for a big repair bill . Paul
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Bruce Day
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 04:17 pm |
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Tim Gautreaux wrote: little loose in the breech
Tim, I think you've been given good advice about the shimming remedy. The issue is what is a "little loose". If there is just a little play, shimming works well. If there is a lot of play, I think it needs to go off to a qualified gunsmith( one who doesn't peen the lug) . Yes, it will shoot looser, but that might take thousands of rounds, and for an underlifter hammer gun that you shoot only occasionally, that will be sufficient.
I know of people with VH shooter guns that have put shims in 5-10 years ago, and still with no more looseness. But if its really rattling, you'd be better off to send it off and pay the money.
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Tim Gautreaux
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 04:58 pm |
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Hi, Bruce,
Thanks for the level-headed response and summation. I had a little extra time yesterday and took the gun completely apart and cleaned it inside. There was a lot of grit in the lifter mechanism. After reassembly there was spring space and very little looseness. The gun has a very substantial curve at the base of the standing breech. I think the grit was preventing the complete forward engagement of the lever controlled bolt. The gun tightens up a tad more with the forearm on. Is the forearm supposed to play any role at all in tightness?
Tim Gautreaux
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Bruce Day
PGCA Member
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Posted: Fri Dec 8th, 2006 05:45 pm |
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Sure. The forend when on will provide another bearing surface. You tell when a hinge pin roll guide, lug connection is loose by taking the forend off and seeing if there is any play. There often is on old , well used guns, but some remain very tight. Put the forend back on and if most of the looseness goes away, the gun is still fine to use, and depending upon how loose, the lug shim may work. A gun with no bearing looseness will be tight without the forend on.
A vertical swinging component looseness when the gun is closed is caused by the locking bolt, lug connection being worn. If the gun has a replaceable wear plate ( 1905 or 1910 improvement), a gunsmith needs to replace the plate, and possibly the matching bolt. If no plate, then material has to be welded to the lug bite and recut. Or better still , have Del Grego install the 1910 improvement. ( I like the 1910 improvement so much , that is an acquisition criteria for me) . Oops...that is for the hammerless guns...your hammer gun just has the lug bite with no replaceable plate.
Often both hinge pin and the locking bolt connections are worn on old , worn guns. Those can be redone, but you start looking at significant expense. Its worst when folks start thinking about a worn gun in overall poor looking condition and thinking that since its a Parker they should rebuild the gun. Unless its a family heirloom with real sentimental value, they can get into a decent gun with less problems for far less cost.
As you found, a thorough cleaning can solve a lot of problems. Its surprising the amount of crud that collects in an action.
Last edited on Fri Dec 8th, 2006 05:50 pm by Bruce Day
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