Type of Solder?

[Eric Estes]

Does anyone know if Parker used a lead/tin soft solder to lay the top rib or did they use a silver solder of some type?

I assume they used a higer temp solder to join the barrels and attach the lug or would that have been a soft solder too?

So for modern repair, relaying a top rib, do people use a plain lead/tin solder or is a low temp silver solder like Brownell's Hi Force 44 preferred?

Thanks for any info you can share.

[John Hancock]

Eric, Any of the Silver solders require too much heat, as does the Hi Force. The only solder you want to use is Brownells Tix Soft Solder. Be very careful with heat, don't try and use anything that builds more heat than a propane torch and you will have the best luck with a tip that gives a "broad" flame as opposed to a "pointed" flame. If you are attaching a top rib use one of the "heat stop" paste compounds on the bottom rib. Keep the heat on the bbls. and let the heated area melt the solder at the juncture. Important, be very careful with the heat. Too much heat will cause the bbls. to swell more than you want and when they cool they will "shrink" where you heated them and cause the tube to be smaller (ID and OD) where you heated it. Just as soon as the solder flows get the heat away. The temperature of the bbls. will continue to rise for a few moments. Don't force cool. Of course there is a lot more than I mentioned depending on wheather just a spot repair or laying the entire rib, methods of holding the rib ect. Hope this is helpful. Regards, John Hancock

[Opening Day]

John it sounds as if you have done this a few times.... Gunsmith ?

[John Hancock]

Yes have done this quite a few times, not a Gunsmith, just old. Regards, John Hancock

[Eric Estes]

Thanks for the information John. Any idea what the composition of the Tix solder is? 50/50, 60/40? Brownells did not state it although I was surprised how low the melt temp is compared to others.

I will be wiring and wedging it up good with some heat sinking on the bottom rib and lugs in particular, but with propane heat and solder that low temp I should have no troubles as long as I take the time to prep and tin properly.

It was interesting what was under the top rib. Luckily very little coorosion since I only had a couple loose spots, and towards the breech there was a lot of resious stuff which I assume was old flux, but the forward 2/3 there was a white clay type material packed tightly in a nice "V" in the gap, completely filling it. It was very clean and very white like chalk or real fine clay dried out. You could crumble it between your fingers and it resulted in a fine white powder that felt clay like.

I saw this mentioned a while back by someone else on another thread and it was speculated that it was just flux. I saw flux, but this other stuff seemed more like a filler or heat sink material of some type. Has anyone else seen this or have any thoughts?

[John Hancock]

Eric, I don't know what composition Tix is but I suspect it is almost all tin. I have used it for 20 or 25 years, mostly on Brownings, and 2 or 3 Parkers. I have seen the "clay" in Parkers and Win 21's and don't know what it was. I don't think it is flux, wondered if it could have been used to "balance" the bbls. The English talk of balancing the bbls. before and seperate from balancing the gun. Regards, John Hancock

[Chuck Heald]

Just my 2 cents as a manufacturing engineer. My information is that almost all the guns of the Parker, Ithaca, LC Smith, Fox, etc., era are assembled with essentially eutectic (ratio giving lowest melting point of the constituents) lead (Pb) and tin (Sn) (63% tin/37% lead) or very close to that alloy. This type of solder melts around 360-380F. The breach of the barrels are brazed together on a Parker using a much higher melting temperature alloy. This is often an alloy that has silver added for strength. This temperature often is in the 1000-1200F range.

Steels will begin grain growth at elevated temperature for extended periods. The higher the temps, the more rapidly the growth of the grain. Or longer times at lower elevated temps will cause this too. With enough time and temp (way beyond the temps and times needed to solder) the steel will grow (not shrink). (Shrinkage in welding is a completely different phenomenae).

I have re-layed ribs on a Parker. Mine was lead and tin soldered originally and I used this for the re-lay. It's almost universally accepted that 60/40 tin/lead is the original and repair alloy. Tix is an indium based alloy that melts around 150F. I don't know about your use, but my barrels can approach this temperature and undoubtedly exceed it, just setting in the direct sunlight on a 100F day in California. Certainly, the barrels will exceed 150F if fired more than a few times in succession on a hot day. We've all had blisters from touching a hot barrel after some repeated shooting.

go to the link below and there's an article...sort of a "how-to".

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18691676

[Chuck Heald]

BTW,
the lug and lower rib were also attached originally with tin/lead solder. The lower lug on these old guns sometimes comes loose and requires resoldering.

At room temperature, 60/40 lead tin solder is approximately 50% stronger in tensile strength to TIX solder.

[John Hancock]

Chuck, My suggestions are only based what has worked for me for many years. Browning Superposed shotguns were known to have the ribs get loose and through the years I have used Tix without a failure. Shooting doves in Mexico on a hot day certainly gets the bbls hot. Brownells, only place I have ever bought Tix, claim in their catalog that Tix melts at 275. I am certain, having taken measurements, that it doesn't take a lot of heat on the typical bbl. to cause it to shrink. My experience in metalluragy is limited to pratical machine work. My business, that I retired from and sold after owning it for 25 years, was at first the Rebuilding and marketing of vehicle A/C Compressors and the last 5 or 6 years developing and manufacturing a new aftermarket compressor. At the onset of the new compressor design I hired an engineer from GM and certainly do understand that sometimes one can just be lucky with their results. Still I can attest to the Tix working for me. Regards, John Hancock

[Chuck Heald]

JH,
I stand corrected on TIX melting temps. Apparently TIX can be had in different melting temps. I will defer to your experience with TIX.

I am unfamiliar with any shrinking in steels or gun barrels from heat generated during soldering or even much higher temperatures. My experience is that grain growth from extended high heat application can cause some dimensional growth and martensitic steels can shrink a very small amount when hardening. I have a graphic example of dimensional growth from grain growth in something I'll try to remember to post a picture of. The example item gets heated regularly to somewhere in the 1800-1900F range from high output propane burner running close to 2000F. The grain growth caused very obvious dimensional growth changes. But this takes extended time at elevated temps or repeated elevated temps.

I am not aware of any steels that exhibit permanent appreciable dimensional change (greater or lesser) effect of temperatures used in soldering with tin/lead eutectic solder. But I'm always learning.