Shotshell Pressure Question?

[Austin W Hogan]

We found an old Dupont loading manual and extracted some material from it in Parker Pages earlier this year. DuPont bulk became available around 1895, and is last mentioned in the early 1950's loading pamphlets. Shotgun handloaders were essentially extinct following WW2 until revived by Alcan in the early 1960's.

DuPont Bulk Smokeless was a convenience. It looked like soap bubbles under a magnifying glass. It was loaded by volume rather than weight as was black powder and it occupied the same space in the shell, allowing it to be used with the same wads. It produced about twice the pressure as black to achieve the dram equivalent load. I don't think pressures were noted for bulk in the DuPont manual, but Phil Sharpe's book indicates bulk burned cleanly at about 9000 psi.

This issue of Parker Pages will contain some information contributed by Ken Waite Jr on Parker's changeover from Black to Bulk smokeless for patterning. Parker continued to pattern with bulk smokeless throughout Meriden production.

PB stands for porous base. It was also bulky relative to IMR and SR DuPont powders, and occupied more shell volume. The early DuPont loading manuals specifically note that PB can not be substituted for black.

Best, Austin

[Bruce Day]

Austin, sounds like another great issue coming up. I know we have the Parker-Hawes Rod articles and now this bulk smokeless matter. As always, I am grateful to learn from others.
One matter I have questioned and not had answered is what presently available powder is closest to the original Dupont bulk smokeless that Parker used for patterning. I've heard Dupont ( IMR) PB but never with a clear explanation.
As for PB being named from "porous base", aren't they all? What makes PB different? Just the bulkiness?

[Mike Stahle]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

Austin, sounds like another great issue coming up. I know we have the Parker-Hawes Rod articles and now this bulk smokeless matter. As always, I am grateful to learn from others.
One matter I have questioned and not had answered is what presently available powder is closest to the original Dupont bulk smokeless that Parker used for patterning. I've heard Dupont ( IMR) PB but never with a clear explanation.
As for PB being named from "porous base", aren't they all? What makes PB different? Just the bulkiness?

And to add, is there a big name shotshell manufacturer out their still loading
a clone or close to a clone loading today as in the late 1890’s ?

Were the first smokeless shotshells in the late 1890’s all paper roll
crimp? Or were they brass shells?

[Roundsworth]

In the 1899 WRA Co. catalog, empty brass shells are specifically for black powder. No loaded brass shells are listed. The different paper empties are labeled for specific powders, black or smokeless. Loaded paper shot shells, black or smokeless, are topped with a single card and roll crimped. The 'Leader' paper shell was their latest and greatest for smokeless. The 'Rival' paper shell was well established as their black powder shell, empty or loaded. The 1899 catalog did not specify smokeless powders actually used in factory loads, as later catalogs did. As nitro loaded shells were not kept in stock, any of the popular smokeless powders were available by customer request. It was not mentioned as to why smokeless shells were not kept on hand.

[Mike Stahle]

Originally Posted by Mark Landskov

In the 1899 WRA Co. catalog, empty brass shells are specifically for black powder. No loaded brass shells are listed. The different paper empties are labeled for specific powders, black or smokeless. Loaded paper shot shells, black or smokeless, are topped with a single card and roll crimped. The 'Leader' paper shell was their latest and greatest for smokeless. The 'Rival' paper shell was well established as their black powder shell, empty or loaded. The 1899 catalog did not specify smokeless powders actually used in factory loads, as later catalogs did. As nitro loaded shells were not kept in stock, any of the popular smokeless powders were available by customer request. It was not mentioned as to why smokeless shells were not kept on hand.

This could be do to the “New Kid On The Block Syndrome”
I’m sure as today; Joe average hunter was well stocked in shells
and played the wait and see how those new smokeless shells
worked out for other's before purchased.

[Austin W Hogan]

I don't have the 1899 catalog, but have the Winchester 1890 and 1910. More varieties of loaded shells and cases were available in 1910, but brass cases were still available. Winchester offered the choice of propellant and shell length in 500 shell orders.
Remington continued to produce loaded black powder shells through the 1930's, but did not resume production after WW 2.

Best, Austin

[Roundsworth]

In 1920, WRA Co. said their 'First Quality' empty brass shells were for black and smokeless powders. The 'New Rival' and 'Nublack' paper shells were specifically for black powder. The 'Leader' in 8 gauge and the 'Repeater' in 24 and 28 gauge were the only other black powder offerings. The 'Leader' and 'Repeater' shells, made predominantly for smokeless, were available with DuPont, Schultze, Dead Shot, E.C, Infallible, and Ballistite smokeless loads.

[charlie cleveland]

i sure am learning a lot from this discusion....im lead to believe that most folks went to smokless powder earlier than i thought...relearned that black powder is rougher on gun and shoulder than smokless.. charlie

[Mike Stahle]

You and me both Charlie.
I have also learned that there’s some unwarranted fear’s,
misconceptions and "silence".

On the positive side it did create the small low pressure
shot shell industry, as well as the low pressure gun rag
police force over the years.

[ch]

but black hits harder than smokless and its a hit with the people u r hunting with and bruce i'm impressed with your vast knoweledge of the english language but could you use words this dumb farm boy don't have 2 look up in the dictionary. ch