Why is a 12 ga Parker a "boat anchor" these days?

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by Dean Romig

I disagree - If you like the gun and want the gun - Buy the gun.

Certainly that is always the case. But if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.

FFL paperwork is a PITA and probably unconstitutional.

[Dean Romig]

1. if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.

2. FFL paperwork is a PITA and probably unconstitutional.

1. That is certainly your prerogative but it doesn’t make a classic American SXS shotgun made before 1899 any more desirable to anyone else.

2. The FFL laws in place today have been tested against the US Constitution and the only people who’s right to legally obtain a firearm have been abridged are those people with a criminal background.
But I agree it’s a PITA.




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[B. Dudley]

Most assume the opposite. But, when you buy a gun on a nics check, serial numbers are not given to the atf. The firearms information is recorded in the dealers bound book and on the 4473 form, and both are retained by the dealer in their business records.
When a nics check is called in the only question asked by the “examiner” at the call center is “type of transaction and firearm?”. Answer is “Sale of Long Gun”. That is it. Period. All they know if that a long gun is being sold. They dont even ask how many. It could be 25 long guns or just one.

The only time that serial number would ever be communicated to the atf by that dealer is in the event of a trace. Which means the gun would have to have been used in a crime or stolen/recovered. The atf works FORWARD from the manufacturer to current day. And with a gun as old as a Parker... they wouldn't get very far.

[edgarspencer]

Pre 1899 is definitely more desirable than post 1898. Cash and carry. No paperwork, no FFL, no record...

This is the case with Winchesters, Colts, etc.

That statement is absurd.
I am quite familiar with many advanced collectors of Colt and Winchesters. I am confident that none of them limit their interests to 'antique only' firearms.
No point in considering Henry's, and 1866 guns, or 1876 guns as none of them were made post 1898, however there were plenty of 1873, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895 guns made well into the 20th century.
Anyone who even casually follows the results of nearly any good auction company today, is able to see countless numbers of guns selling well into six figures, with no correlation to the BATF determantion of antique status

But if presented two identical guns at similar prices, one being antique and the other not, I would definitely opt for the antique gun first.

This caveat does nothing to diminish the flaw in your first statement, other than to say YOU would 'opt' for the gun without paperwork.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by edgarspencer

That statement is absurd.
I am quite familiar with many advanced collectors of Colt and Winchesters. I am confident that none of them limit their interests to 'antique only' firearms.
No point in considering Henry's, and 1866 guns, or 1876 guns as none of them were made post 1898, however there were plenty of 1873, 1885, 1886, 1892, 1894 and 1895 guns made well into the 20th century.
Anyone who even casually follows the results of nearly any good auction company today, is able to see countless numbers of guns selling well into six figures, with no correlation to the BATF determantion of antique status


This caveat does nothing to diminish the flaw in your first statement, other than to say YOU would 'opt' for the gun without paperwork.

I don't think collectors of Winchesters and Colts limit themselves to only pre 1899 firearms, but there is definitely a premium for these vs a similar but post 1898 gun. About 20%. I know Winchesters and Colts far better than side by sides and this is nearly gospel.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by Brian Dudley

Most assume the opposite. But, when you buy a gun on a nics check, serial numbers are not given to the atf. The firearms information is recorded in the dealers bound book and on the 4473 form, and both are retained by the dealer in their business records.
When a nics check is called in the only question asked by the “examiner” at the call center is “type of transaction and firearm?”. Answer is “Sale of Long Gun”. That is it. Period. All they know if that a long gun is being sold. They dont even ask how many. It could be 25 long guns or just one.

The only time that serial number would ever be communicated to the atf by that dealer is in the event of a trace. Which means the gun would have to have been used in a crime or stolen/recovered. The atf works FORWARD from the manufacturer to current day. And with a gun as old as a Parker... they wouldn't get very far.

Yes, all true. But you never know someday if bound books get into the wrong hands, whatever that may be.

Okay, at the very least, I can have an antique firearm delivered to my door and not have to pay an FFL fee and can use that money instead for a bottle of Jack Daniel's.

[Opening Day]

Okay, at the very least, I can have an antique firearm delivered to my door and not have to pay an FFL fee and can use that money instead for a bottle of Jack Daniel's.

If you want to have it shipped to your door C&R license for $30 for 3 years and you can buy any gun more than 50 years old.

[MrBojangles]

Originally Posted by Eric Eis

If you want to have it shipped to your door C&R license for $30 for 3 years and you can buy any gun more than 50 years old.

If one buys 5 or so guns over 3 years is it worth it for the paperwork? I don't know as I've never looked into it and not something I considered before.

[Bill Murphy]

Brian's post reminds me of a funny story. The Parker Research Committee was hard at work at Ilion in 1998 when a Remington employee came into the archives and gave us a telegram or cable from an Italian police department. They implied a Parker shotgun had been used in a crime and asked if Remington could help them in their investigation. The Remington employee just said, "Can you guys handle this?" I assume Mark Conrad or Ron Kirby took the appropriate action. The serial number was very early but I can't remember whether we found the gun in the records. I still have a copy of the communication in my files. The week we were in the archives, we were asked to reply to any Parker related correspondence that came to Remington during that time.

[edgarspencer]

I don't think collectors of Winchesters and Colts limit themselves to only pre 1899 firearms, but there is definitely a premium for these vs a similar but post 1898 gun. About 20%. I know Winchesters and Colts far better than side by sides and this is nearly gospel.

Once again, I can't agree with you. You use words like "definitely" and "gospel" like there's no other opinion that matter's and that makes me suspect of your whole thought process. I have been collecting Colts, Winchesters, and Parkers, and ONLY those three makes for over 60 years. In my 72 years, I've met some of the best known collectors, and learned from each of them. Knowing what and how they have, and still do buy guns makes nothing but good common sense. There ain't no gospel according to anyone I know that says a pre '99 gun of equal condition is worth 20% more than a post '99 gun. Spend enough time behind your table at the Baltimore gun show, arguably the preeminent antique arms show in the east and you'll know this to be true.