Puppies -Lets see them while they were still cute

[King Brown]

How about some opinions of turning a four-year-old stud and pro field trialer, a laser-guided missile into a dog who does the job perfectly without pain avoidance, as have all my other Labs trained the old way (Training Your Retriever, the definitive classic by James Lamb Free) for the last 50 years?

There's not a speck of dirt in him. In fact, his affection and good manners are distinguishing characteristics, along with being the best-looking chocolate I've ever seen. I'm encouraged by his progress over the two months I've had him, filling a two-year void from the death of my great Jake from old age.

I'm not interested in trials and tests, a simulation of hunting as trap and skeet, nor performance derived from pressure-on-pressure off electronic pain avoidance. The old way of training provided a dimension of companionship experience better suited to me. I'm spending a lot of time with him and spitting occasionally in his mouth.

Appreciate your opinions.

[Dean Romig]

"Spitting in his mouth'? I've never heard of such a thing... what is it said to accomplish?

The best advice I can give is to have extreme patience and above all, total consistency.





.

[C.O.B.]

Maybe he's giving the pooch a smooch

[King Brown]

I got a ragging about spitting when I mentioned it a couple years ago on the other board. Here's the back-story: when an earlier Jake died a few months before duck season, I asked around where I might find a dog. A buddy mentioned a man in a nearby town, a prominent businessman who had "ruined" his Lab by overzealous handling to make the junior nationals but my buddy said he was a good dog.

Turned out he was all of that although an embarrassment publicly to me when not hunting because just a look at him or say a harsh world would practically turn him on his back, four feet in the air. He couldn't look anyone in the eye, an affectionate, great retriever but broken. This went on for nearly two years until one day in the blind I remembered reading of a remedy many years previously in a hunting magazine.

I spat down his mouth, and sent another couple down for good luck. There was no change for maybe six or seven months. Then, over the next two months, he became a real dog again, making eye contact, a confident, hell-for-leather companion. I never lost a bird with him. Surprised no one heard of it. Made sense to me. It's in Hunting Dog Know-How, a book by David Michael Duffey, then Outdoor Life dog editor, page 155:

Referring to shyness, encouraging confidence ". . .one way to establish rapport between you and the dog, while you are petting and fussing with him, is by opening his mouth and spitting in it occasionally. Saliva is one of the first bonds between any dam and her young, through licking and cleaning, so you can often speed up a dog's acceptance of you by expectorating in his mouth. More than one horse has been coaxed and gentled with a gob of spit."

The investigation continues, as a departed and valued member here said more than once.

[King Brown]

Dean, I think that's it: patience and consistency. I followed it over 50 years of training but couldn't have turned the ruined dog without it. That dog really trained me about patience and consistency. I couldn't raise my voice or make quick body movements.

[Steve Hodges]

Lets see some more puppies!!!!!!!

[MD*GSP]

Originally Posted by King Brown

I got a ragging about spitting when I mentioned it a couple years ago on the other board. Here's the back-story: when an earlier Jake died a few months before duck season, I asked around where I might find a dog. A buddy mentioned a man in a nearby town, a prominent businessman who had "ruined" his Lab by overzealous handling to make the junior nationals but my buddy said he was a good dog.

Turned out he was all of that although an embarrassment publicly to me when not hunting because just a look at him or say a harsh world would practically turn him on his back, four feet in the air. He couldn't look anyone in the eye, an affectionate, great retriever but broken. This went on for nearly two years until one day in the blind I remembered reading of a remedy many years previously in a hunting magazine.

I spat down his mouth, and sent another couple down for good luck. There was no change for maybe six or seven months. Then, over the next two months, he became a real dog again, making eye contact, a confident, hell-for-leather companion. I never lost a bird with him. Surprised no one heard of it. Made sense to me. It's in Hunting Dog Know-How, a book by David Michael Duffey, then Outdoor Life dog editor, page 155:

Referring to shyness, encouraging confidence ". . .one way to establish rapport between you and the dog, while you are petting and fussing with him, is by opening his mouth and spitting in it occasionally. Saliva is one of the first bonds between any dam and her young, through licking and cleaning, so you can often speed up a dog's acceptance of you by expectorating in his mouth. More than one horse has been coaxed and gentled with a gob of spit."

The investigation continues, as a departed and valued member here said more than once.

It’s actually true that subordinates in a wolf pack lick the mouth of the leader but..you’re claiming that you spit in your dogs mouth and seven months later it was transformed into a confident dog again. Really?

How about working patiently with the dog and setting-up situations so that the dog is likely to succeed? A baby-step forward here and there along with stern but always fair treatment coupled with praise for being the good dog he is for the "little things" seems to go a long way. Never hurts to just let a dog be a dog sometimes either (let 'em dig to china in all their dog glory every now and again - and not get in trouble for it)

[King Brown]

MD-GSP, yes, your opinion is a big part of it but it's not so much setting up situations to succeed as much as shaping another discipline off the collar. This dog is a pro for games with four years of electronic training. I'm easing into "stern but fair treatment" off the shocks, to do it for me and not to avoid pain, to be a real dog as you say.

As for the old remedy "cure," who can say empirically the spit did it and not stern and fair repetition and patience? It seems to me old ways often stick around because of a fair measure of success, perhaps with even a better record of reality than the accepted supernatural that the earth was created 2,000 years ago.

The remedy has been around since at least before the last century, there's David Michael Duffey's 1965 book endorsement of spit in particular situations, and my own experience of a transformation from a completely broken spirit. There's no advantage to anyone to make it up. I suspect old-timers and professionals recommend it because it (sometimes) works.

[Steve Hodges]

Quote--"I'm easing into "stern but fair treatment" off the shocks, to do it for me and not to avoid pain, to be a real dog as you say."

Mr. Brown, if you choose to train your dog off the E Collar that is entirely your business, but please do no state that dogs that work with assistance of the E Collar are not "real dogs, as you say". My dogs are real dogs in every sense of the word and I use an E Collar judiciously to re-enforce my voice and whistle commands. I can control them from great distances and can stop them from crossing a busy highway in an instant, a great safety measure, or call them off a porcupine before they get seriously hurt, which I have done before. Oh, and your emphatic point that they are not doing it for me is pure malarkey in my book. Funny how when I break out the E Collars both dogs go berserk, not because they don't want them on but just the opposite, they DO want them on because they associate them with a pleasurable time hunting with ME in the field. Go ahead and spit all you want in your poor pooches mouth, I choose to skip that rather gross training method and feel a bit sorry for the dog. JMHO.

[OH Osthaus]

ok guys- not to be picky

but can we get back to puppy pics

maybe start a training method thread