11-Gauge Parkers

[Austin W Hogan]

Thank you for your inputs. That graph appeared in Parker Pages a few years ago. It is based on measurements of bores of guns with .810 chambers, made with a Stan Baker Bore gauge. It represents mostly my own Parkers; I had many more measurements but did not "busy up" the plot. The measurements were made in a similar way as those of the Super Fox in the DGJ article.
I spent a pleasant day with TSP, reviewing King's work, and bore measurements. I can only conclude that King's tooling used from around s/n 7000 to 70000 bored .750+/- twelve gauge bores. Also, 11 gauge guns are no longer listed in catalogs and price lists after 1872.
I will write a summary of this for Parker Pages.

Best, Austin

[David Hamilton]

Richard, I will pattern the Colt barrels and do the measurements. I did find that the Colt chambers are not tapered and that a brass shell from my 10 ga Parker lifter would not go back all-the-way into the Parker chamber after being fired in the Colt. David

[Richard B. Hoover]

Forrest,

The "modern" definition of Shotgun gauge size in relation to bore diameter is determined by the laws of physics and mathematics and the English system of weights and measures. A sphere of lead that weighs 1/12 of a pound has a diameter of 0.729 inches. It takes eleven lead spheres of 0.751" diameter to weigh exactly one pound. It traces back to the middle ages when cannon bore dimensions were defined by the weight of a lead ball they fired. A full cannon was a 42 pounder and fired a 42 pound cannon ball. A 12 gauge gun that is severely pitted or has been honed could easily have the bore diameter of an 11 or even a 10 gauge size. We know from the records that in the early days (1872 to 1875) Parker made a number of 11-gauge guns and chambered them 11A (.825" head diameter) and others were made for 12A brass or 12 Paper shells (0.810") which is the proper chamber size for 12gauge guns made today, Some of the early 11-ga Parkers were chambered for 10A shells (0.849" head diameter) and have a record of one 11-gauge Parker that was chambered for the Parker 11B shell ( 0.792"). I have also measured a 12-gauge Parker that was chambered for the 11B shell

[Hammer Fan]

Thank you for your reply Richard. I am very familiar with the origins of the gauge system for bore size. What I meant by "modern", is when did guns become standardized as to where a 12 gauge gun had a .729 diameter bore. This is a fairly modern occurrence, I would estimate this happened sometime in the mid 19th century. For example the British Board of Ordinance documents that a musket's "caliber" was not the bore size, but the size ball it shot. A Brown Bess musket had a actual bore size of around .760-.800 but fired a ball of around .690. It's caliber was referred to as being 13 balls to the pound, not 10 or 9. The same for the 42 pound cannon example you gave. For arguments sake say a 42 pound cannon ball measures 6". I will bet you a Coke that the actual bore diameter of the cannon is larger than 6", so why isn't it called a 41 1/2 pounder or a 41 pounder, by "modern" standards?

Today things are backwards from those early definitions. If you can find ball slugs for your 12 gauge, they will not measure .729, but somewhere around .690-.700. Why don't we call the gun a 13 gauge? It is because more recent standards have determined that a 12 gauge should have a bore size of .729 regardless of what size ball it shoots. I might argue that a Parker with a .750 bore is a more true 12 gauge because it can shoot a full sized .729 ball.

I think if there was a wide spread data collection of the bore sizes of the guns in the serial number range Austin gave (7,000-70,000) we would be shocked at the thousands of "11 gauge" guns that are floating around out there, if we went by bore size alone. Your reference to chamber dimensions may be the only way to accurately determine what the gun was originally classified as (if the Parker records for that specific gun are incomplete). Throw in the "A" and "B" chamberings and you get to a whole new level of headaches. I thank you for trying to add some clarity to this subject.

Do any of you know if there has been published data made available of full hull/chamber dimensions of the A and B versions of each gauge. This might go a long way as to clarifying this topic.

[Pa SxS]

I guess all these measurements are interesting if your a statistician and want to track the evolution that Parker made to their barrels over the years but how does it impact using modern 12ga ammo in these over sized bores?

Many years ago when Stan Baker was alive, he manufactured barrels that were bored out to .800 using standard 12ga chambers. If I remember correctly, pressures were only slightly reduced due to the larger bore diameter however most of the pressure is developed in the chamber or slightly forward of the chamber so pressure wasn't greatly affected. I also think velocity was slightly increased due to less barrel friction as the wad/shot moved up the barrel. Modern wads would properly seal against the barrel. Many modern guns are overbored from the factory and well known gunsmiths like Tom Wilkenson believe in improved patterns by overboring barrels but not as drastic as Baker.

To sum up what's been discussed (correct me if I'm wrong)

1. Parker made 11ga barrels with .825+ chambers and .851 bores mostly prior to 1874 in the 2000-6000 S/N range. Some of these guns may have been entered as 10ga or 12ga when they are really 11ga.

2. Many Parkers in the range of 7,000 to 70,000 have standard 12ga chambers with bores of .750 +/-. No problem at all shooting modern 12ga ammo in these guns.

3. After 70,000 bore diameters were mostly in the .730 to .734 range.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Forrest,

I regret my wording may have been awkward and I assure you I did not mean to insult in any way. I am very well aware that Parker enthusiasts are extremely knowledgeable about shotguns. However, I have been wading in this 11-gauge thicket for over two decades now and things just seem to get curiouser and curiouser. There is no doubt that Parker made 11-gauge shotguns in the 1866 to 1875 period. They designated many of them as 11's in both the Order and Stock books. This was done even in cases when the guns were chambered for 12-gauge shells.

To support this notion, I attach a copy of Pgs. 48 and 49 from the Parker Order Book of 1872. As you can see, Order 2075 of July 1st 1872 was for a $150 10 Ga Parker with 30" barrels, chambered for 10A brass shells and shipped with 50 10 A shells. Order 2076 was for a 1-11-32 $135 Damascus barrel gun and 50 12A shells. Similarly 2078 was an Order for a 135$ 11-ga Parker and it was sold with 100 12A shells. Order 2071 was for a $75 12-ga. gun and it was shipped with 3 doz shells at $6 and 50 paper shells (price not shown). Order 2293 of Feb. 1873 from W. L. Harrod of Norwalk, Ohio was for a $100 Iron Barrel 11-ga Parker with "Stock Tough and Curly" and "No Checking" was chambered for brass 11B shells. I have an 11-gauge Parker that was chambered for 11A Brass or 11 Paper shells. I also have one chambered for 10A brass shells and have seen data for another one.

I have measured the bores and chambers of many Parkers, but they were almost all early lifter guns. Many of them are precisely 12-gauge (.729" bores chambered 12Barrels (such as the Meriden Prototype #06 that was initially thought to be S/N 90 and a 14-ga gun because of the 12B chambers).

The Proof Testing of barrels was well established in Europe before Charles parker started making shotguns, and there is evidence he was well aware of those standards. The History of Shotgun Proving is beautifully described in the small book by Purdey and the 1868 Provisional and Definitive Proof loads are given in the Table by Greener (Attached). Parker was not required to use these standards, but there is evidence in TPS that Proker Proved all of his barrels and the standard Provisional and Definitive Proof loads shown in the Greener Table appear to have been used at the Parker Factory.

Now the mysteries are:

Why would Parker have made 11-bore dimension barrels and called the guns 12-gauge during this serial number range? This would have resulted in lower pressures, and possibly improved patterns by reducing deformation of the shot.

Did they Proof test these barrels with the loads and charge for 11-bore barrels? And are there any records about precisely how Parker Proof Tested their Barrels at different times? Maybe they changed back to the correct bore dimensions when chilled shot was introduced? Does anyone know if the date of the introduction of lead show with antimony added to increase the hardness is at about the same time as the S/N 70,000 Parkers??

I am delighted more people are becoming interested in measuring their barrels. I have a nice set of Bore and Chamber gauges. Unfortunately I can not go to the SXS, but would be delighted if someone would be willing to measure the bores of some of the wonderful guns that will be there.

Yours,

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

I attach the rest of the files. I could have included all of these pages as a single .pdf file, but did not discover until I had created them that the site allows .odf files up to 17 meg in size. I was trying to keep everything less than 1 meg. The last page (Pg. 141) in The Shotgun Book by Purdey and Purdey is the most important as it sets forth the broad requirements for Proof testing in accordance with bore size.

Richard

[Richard B. Hoover]

Forrest,

I have published the measurements of the dimensions of a number of the early Brass and Paper shells in my DGJ articles on 11-gauge Parkers (Winter, 2008 and Spring, 2009). I will be happy to make them into .pdf files and upload them if you would like.

Richard

[Pa SxS]

Richard,

I'll be more than happy to measure bores at the Southern. We can compile a list and forward to you. Unfortunately, my Stan Baker micrometers don't measure 12ga chambers but my digital calipers may be good enough. I'll have them at the Parker Tent for everyone to use.

Chuck Bishop

[Richard B. Hoover]

Chuck,

That is great. How deep can you get into the bores? I am still hoping to learn more about full length tapered bores, so if they can reach 15" you could measure the full length of most barrels.

By the way, I forgot to post a couple of other things that had led me to my conclusions about early Parker 11-gauge guns. It had been suggested that Charles Parker just may not have cared much about precise bore dimensions. Then in June 1996, I had the wonderful opportunity to measure the bores and chambers of the Prototype Parker S/N 06 at the Meriden Historical Society. It was originally thought to be S/N 90 and in 14-gauge. Charlie Hezog and the late "Big Iron" Ed Kapelski helped me to measure the gun and fing that it was chambered for short (2") Maynard shells and with rlief chokes in the last 4" at the muzzle. My measurements revealed that both bores were perfect 12-bore dimensions (0.729") over almost the entire length of both barrels (Attached). This precision 1866 barrel boring amazed my friends in the NASA/MSFC machine shop. The Prototype was chambered for Maynard shells and it had an abrupt lip at the end of the chambers so that once it had been fired and the hulls were still in place it could be used as a muzzle loader. This was fine, since the caps were not in the shells, but fitted on percussion nipples on the top of the receiver. An 1866 or 1867 Ad in the Webb N. E Railway and Manufacturer's Statistical Gazeteer described this type of gun. The Meriden T-Latch Parker with Percussion Nipples may be the only one of its kind still in existence, and I doubt that they made very many to start with. I attach the Webb Ad as there may be new members of the PGCA that have never seen it, but I think it was probably published in TPS.

Richard