RIO PRIMERS

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Mike Koneski

The digging around I have done in the past and info from powder manufacturers was as long as you are not substituting a Federal 209/209A or Cheddite 209 for another 209 style primer the difference is minimal and may even be lesser pressures/velocities depending on the original primer called for. The Federal primers are hotter than Win, Rem, CCI, Fiocchi, Nobel, Rio. Since we are loading on the lower end of SAAMI specs there are viable substitutions. Off the record info from manufacturers is yes, you can substitute the lower burn temp primers. On the record info is dictated by lawyers. It is what it is.

Mike are saying that Cheddite are also hotter?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Stan Hillis

It amazes me how many people who reload are so concerned about component substitution (and rightly so), but only so far as it affects pressures. What kills birds and breaks clays reliably isn't proper pressure levels (although they are very important), it's good patterns. Component substitution can and will change patterns. I wish everyone was as concerned with their patterns as they are the pressures. But, they aren't.

I don't mean to sound like I'm preaching to the choir, but it seems to me that those of us who enjoy patterning are few and far between.

Yeah, except patterns don't blow you front hand off, pressure does.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Originally Posted by Andrew Sacco

Mike are saying that Cheddite are also hotter?

That's what the data said. Remember though that we are loading on the low end of SAAMI specs too. Not as hot as the Federal 209/209A but burn hotter than the other 209 makers.

I don't use Federal or Cheddite so I can't share any results. I know guys who use Cheddites instead of Rem, Win, etc with no issues.

[Stan Hillis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Sacco

Yeah, except patterns don't blow you front hand off, pressure does.

Agreed completely, but note that I didn't say pressures should be ignored, just that the effects on patterns, of switching primers, shouldn't be ignored.

Said another way, while low pressures are beneficial to the life of a vintage gun, they don't guarantee fine patterns. Only pattern testing determines that.

[Mike of the Mountain]

Pattern testing will only give an indicator of point of impact. A 2D pattern does not give a true representation of a shot string in flight. It is fine for testing if you are shooting at a static target, such as a turkey head.

[Andy]

Stan and Mike you both make great points, except for how to make patterning fun. I'm not even sure I know how to pattern properly, I'll ask that in another (sure to be flamed) thread later : )

[Mike of the Mountain]

Andy, you have your wife stand 70 yards away and shoot three shells at her. Ask her to count how many pellets she feels, multiply that number by seven and call your lawyer. 🤣🤣

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Mike Koneski

Andy, you have your wife stand 70 yards away and shoot three shells at her. Ask her to count how many pellets she feels, multiply that number by seven and call your lawyer. 🤣🤣

I probably don't need to shoot at her to have to call my lawyer Mike!!

[Stan Hillis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Sacco

Stan and Mike you both make great points, except for how to make patterning fun. I'm not even sure I know how to pattern properly, I'll ask that in another (sure to be flamed) thread later : )

Andy, I can't say that I find patterning really fun, but I find it so worthwhile that I don't consider it a bother, or a chore. The confidence in my load and gun, that I glean from meticulous pattern testing, transfers to better shooting. And .......... that is fun!

Stan

[Cold Spring]

Originally Posted by Stan Hillis

Andy, I can't say that I find patterning really fun, but I find it so worthwhile that I don't consider it a bother, or a chore. The confidence in my load and gun, that I glean from meticulous pattern testing, transfers to better shooting. And .......... that is fun!

Stan

Patterning can be made very much easier if you get a 30" and 20" circle template made up of transparent plastic, something like 1/8 or 3/16" thick. Think of a doughnut with a 30" outside diameter and 20" inside diameter.

You slightly open the crimp on at least 3 shells and count the pellets to get an average count. Then replace the pellets in each shell and tighten the crimps using your fingers. Often you'll find that the actual count doesn't match the listed number for that load in terms of ounce/fractions and pellet size.

Set up your paper at 40 yards (or whatever) and shoot offhand at a temporary aiming point centered on the paper. I use a red or yellow sticky note about 2-1/2" square.

Then after shooting you remove the aiming point, eyeball the transparent template to center it over the bulk of the pellet strikes, and draw your outer and inner circles with a pencil. That shows the actual center POI versus the aiming point. Usually the POI doesn't exactly coincide with the aiming point and can be many inches away from shot to shot. After patterning for a while you'll find that some factory ammo is more uniform than others.

Then if using a tightly choked gun you only have to count the pellets outside the 30" circle. Subtract from the average pellet count and you can cipher the efficiency (pattern percentage). For those interested in comparing hot centers for long range performance you can count the pellet strikes in the 20" circle. Lastly, if testing an open choke gun you count the pellet strikes inside the 30" circle as per typical practice and do the math.

Some day you might want to do patterning with spreader shells; that can be eye opening.

Now, I know some readers are thinking all this is way too detailed and they just shoot their vintage guns with existing chokes made for bare shot/fiber wads and with random modern shells. Great if that works for you on clays courses and in the field.