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Unread 12-08-2010, 05:06 PM   #21
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Paul Harm
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I couldn't get smokeless to work in brass, but not saying it won't. Read my thread on "crimps". The depth of crimp is very important for pressure [ .030 to .070 verys pressure from 9000 to 13000psi ]. Because we're shooting smoothbores the only resistance the shell sees is the crimp. I don't know where the "glue crimp" would be on the resistance scale for producing pressure. Paul
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Unread 12-09-2010, 05:47 AM   #22
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Hello all, interesting thread.
I was pointed in your direction from a UK site after I started asking around for some data to reload some shells for my 10 bore hammer gun, its a Thomas Bland, 2 5/8" chambers, damascus barrels but nitro proofed.
When I got the gun, I was also given some old Eley paper cased loads, both 2 5/8" and 2 7/8" which to be honest, shot the same with no discernible increase in recoil.
I have never shot anything else through it and now with the lead shot ban have been trying unsuccessfully to get some reloading data so I can try to put some ITX shot through it.
I have noted the comments about a small step in the chambers but have not really noticed that so will be having a closer inspection later.
Have any of you home loaders used Bismuth or Tungsten Matrix through your older guns and if so, do they measure up to lead.
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Unread 12-09-2010, 10:52 AM   #23
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Shane,

If you can buy bulk (loose shot) Tungston Matrix please do so and load up!!! You will of course owe me your source since I've never seen bulk TI for sale.

ITX is okay at best. Some like Bismuth which provides good performance but not that of TI or lead.

Nice Shot is my favorite of the AVAILABLE non-toxic loads. It provides performance close to lead. My load of an ounce and a eight of #2 in a 12 bore at 1200 FPS laid out Canada Geese over my pond at 60 yards. I also used 1 and 3/8 oz in 10 bores with equal success! During the early goose season I had an incident of multiple severely wombed geese with two shoots from a rather well used EH Parker. I wish I had a witness and photo of that! Oh, it was one of those days when I was glad it was the early season allows a bag limit of 5 geese! Yup, filled my limit with 2 shots to drop them and 2 perhaps unnecessary clean up shots.

Be advised that the hardness of Nice Shot raises pressures by apporimately 1500 PSI (per their website). I started with a 7000 PSI load and with the additional 1500 PSI well in the safe working range of my GOOD CONDITION LC Smiths and Parker #2 and 3 Frame Damascus barreled guns. If you shoot Damascus You will of course have to determine if your gun meets the condition and design for a given pressures. Please refer to page 515 of the Parker story for Service Working Limits for pressure for each of Parker's gauges and frame sizes.

Shoot well and shoot safely,
Mark
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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:02 PM   #24
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Mark, I can indeed buy all the non toxic shot I need together with the components but what I am struggling to get together is a kit to do the reloading plus get some data for suitable loads. I was also looking at getting some brass cases made rather than having to buy the big plastics and cut them down.
I see from your profile you are in S E Michigan which means that the import costs would be prohibitive from the local supplier I have found.

http://www.claygame.co.uk/Cat22Page13Shot.pdf
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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:02 PM   #25
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ballistic products
ITX Shot (bag/7 lbs) $129.00

TEAL TAKER LOAD
Load# 80611-368
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.75” (#064121600)(#64121602)(#0641208)
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON UNIVERSAL CLAYS 25.0 Grains
WAD: BP TPS35MM Pre-slit(#3227735) Mica dust wad please.
SHOT: 7/8 ounce ITX #4 shot (382 grains).
BUFFER: None
FOLD CRIMP: 6-point (Recommended for new hulls). Over shot, #OS12 card used.
Results: 9600 PSI 1365 FPS

EARLY GOOSE GETTER
Load# 80611-371
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 3.50”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON UNIVERSAL CLAYS 31.0 Grains
WAD: X12X(#322X12X) + TPS1275(#3227701) Mica dust wad please.
SHOT: 1 1/4 ounce ITX BB shot (546 grains).
BUFFER: None.
FOLD CRIMP: 6-point (Recommended for new hulls). Over shot, #OS12 used.
Results: 12500 PSI 1380 FPS
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Last edited by richard lambert; 12-09-2010 at 12:08 PM.. Reason: added data
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Unread 12-09-2010, 12:25 PM   #26
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Shane,

Send me a PM with your email and I'll send Sherman Bell's 10 Ga loading data. Mr Bell did the "Finding Out For Myself" research in DGJ that a lot of us rely on.

The ITM available from your supplier would be perfect for your Thomas Bland. If you use a load recipe for lead add 2000 PSI to it for the harder non-toxic and you should be fine in that nitro proofed gun. There are many 6000-7000 PSI lead loads that with any extra pressure from ITM a nitro proofed gun would be fine with. But, if you notice any flatness of the primer the pressure is getting up there...

Mark
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Unread 12-09-2010, 04:22 PM   #27
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I'm missing something. All other things being equal, why would harder non-tox shot generate higher pressures?
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Unread 12-09-2010, 04:28 PM   #28
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John,

During firing the bottom rows of lead shot are crushed/deformed providing a cushion which reduces peak pressure. This concept is similar to how a piston of a plastic shot cup reduces deformed shot and also lessens pressure.

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Unread 12-09-2010, 04:31 PM   #29
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"Flatness of the Primer" Mark could you explain this to me?
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Unread 12-09-2010, 05:20 PM   #30
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All other factors remaining constant such as the chamber/gun, type of hull, and primer, when pressures continue to raise a primer will eventually be pushed against the flat wall of the breach.

I have often seen primers from my trapshooting friends' reloads that have been pushed flat against the breach face. Their loads often exceed 1300 PFS for 1 and 1/8 oz. Now, the pressure of those rounds may have been within the 11,500 SAAMI 12 gauge working maximum but they are far above what I desire to shoot in a Damascus gun!

If you load the same hulls and primers at 6000 psi and also 10,000 psi take a look at the edge of the primer cups where it curves from the flat portion that the firing pin/hammer strikes. The primers from higher pressure loads will start to loose their curve. When pressure is higher (not necessarily too high) that portion of the primer will fill in.

I have noticed a slight flattening of primers with my hunting loads. This is not referenced to any measurement of pressure but it does indicate that something is happening!

Here is a photo of a flattened primer from a rifle.


There is a lot of debate about this subject on the reloading and rifle and pistol shooting forums. My experiance from loading for both rifle and pistol is that when I pushed to the top of the loading data the primers flattened out upon firing. Also, when the bolt was hard to open the primer was very, very flat!

PS: If I opened my Parker and noticed primers as flat as in the photo I would drop me my knees and thank God for sparing me from my stupidity!
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