Verstehen German Guns?

[Kensal Rise]

Oddly, I've been charged with tracing down the heritage of a matched pair of German/Bohemian guns.

They are a fine pair of 16s. Very Anglo at first glance. And made up by Johann Haberda of Frauenberg, Bohemia.

He was “Furst Schwarzenberg Scher Hotbuchsenmacher”.

My suspicion from initial research is that these guns were made for a duke or prince (Scher = Prince) of Schwartzenberg. Via the stock ovals/crest on the comb of each gun. I have no idea of the W's meaning.

Can any of you provide insight? I've already tapped the German Gun Collectors Assn. But thought I've post here as well.

Thanks in advance for any insights...

[Kensal Rise]

Here's a look at the gun itself... No. 2 of the pair.

[Dean Romig]

I wonder if the crown and W are representative of the St. Wenceslas crown? There is reference to this in Vienna, Austria and Budapest, Hungary. Seems appropriate for a prince who was likely crowned in a cathedral by a high-ranking bishop or cardinal.





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[Southpaw]

Fascinating. Classic example of the provenance of gun ownership probably creating more value for the gun, than just a another well made neat old german made gun, with a sling. I will have to take your word for it that is a W that is engraved. I mean it could be interpreted as an "M" the way its broken, but no expert of German, text, alphabet or fonts.

Just guessing but it appears to maybe have been made early 1900's and maybe prior to WWI, but still that is a guess, but probably a strong obvious one. Do you know when that gun maker was active. I mean it could have been made in the 30's as well. If you know the time frame then that could limit your search to appropriate era. Again no expert on German history but not certain they were crowning or gifting too much to nobility after WWI.

Went to this site and then found these listings or people in that era. If its an M then maybe they could be for a woman Maria or an heir Maximin. Who the heck knows. If a W then it could be Weinsberg.

http://almanachdegotha.org/id101.html


h) Eleonore Johanna Marie (Seebenstein 24 Jun 1858-Móor 14 Feb 1938); m.Vienna 22 May 1883 Heinrich Gf von Lamberg (Preßburg 16 Jul 1841-Ottenstein 17 Oct 1929)

2h) JOHANN Nepomuk Adolf Maria Hubert Maximin Fst zu Schwarzenberg (Vienna 29 May 1860-Vienna 1 Oct 1938); m.Vienna 27 Aug 1889 Therese Gfn von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg (Oberwaltersdorf 9 Feb 1870-Neunkirchen 12 Aug 1945)

Also it appears the reading the history of Schwarzenberg that alot of their holdings were in what is now Czech Republic. Now here is my wild ass theory that I have no basis but just throwing it out there. When the Nazis invaded Czech region they took possession of their holdings and the Schwarzenberg family is said to have fled not wanting any part of the Nazi party. Maybe that gun went with them or maybe was left behind and Germans kept it as a war prize. Pretty thin.

[Kensal Rise]

Here's a rough time frame for Johann:

"Johann HABERDA, active 1850-1879, Krumau (Cesky Krumlov), formerly Austria-Hungary, now Czech Republic. He took over workshop of Ferdinand Moravek in Krumau. Later he relocated to castle of Hluboka. For some years gunmaker of the Duke of Schwarzenberg. (Heer/Stockel)"

"Johann/Jan Haberda was supplier to the Habsburg dynasty and it would seem that he obtained this rank circa 1860..."

I just need to know more about that crown/W emblem...!

Thanks to all so far!

[Garth Gustafson]

John, Wilhelm I was King of Prussia and later became the German Emperor. He reigned 1871-1888. His grandson, Wilhelm II (the Kaiser) reigned 1888-1918. It would be awesome if these guns can be linked to one of them.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...s-dealers-f-j/

[Kensal Rise]

Here's the tantalizing bit for fans of royalty.

Compare this crown with that on the stock...:

"Heraldic crown of a prince of the Holy Roman Empire..."

[Garth Gustafson]

This from Wikipedia: The Crown of William II, also known as the Hohenzollern Crown, is the 1888 crown made for William II, German Emperor, in his role as King of Prussia. It was only used for heraldic purposes. A Crown of the German Empire was never made.

[Southpaw]

Great stuff. Still trying to make out the W but I trust your certain on that. So how does story lead to where you are now.

Anyway this could be a tough one to make a connection on. The stock looks old enough to be from late 1800's. I don't know the history of firearms when they started making hammerless sidelock shotguns but late 1870's is possible. How it stayed together as a matched pair is intriguing as well.

So if he did not make the guns for a particular Schwarzenberg its possible a Schwarzenberg made the gun as a gift? I guess if there are any photos of William II or anyone holding that gun that would be the proof.

[Southpaw]

Kensal,

Your project has enthralled me and I don't know why. Please let us know what you find out. Btw I went to site that Garth sent, and saw a gun with an engraving for Wilhelm II. Very ornate, Germans like heavy engraving and scroll work. There was a very pronounced W on the engraving with the crown included as well. Btw I did see some of the other type set for that era lettering and I am convinced that the letter engraved is an M and not a W. But hey that is just my two cents. If you hit a dead end on W then may consider M angle.

Good luck and let us know what the German Gun collectors come up with. Very interesting project to sleuth around on. I did see some Wilhelm II photos with him holding game and around game, but never saw any of them holding any guns.