Who is the Winchester engraver?? Help

[Old and Reliable]

The time line for the 1912 to 12 roll stamping change was mid-1919, one of WRA's many "running changes" - w/o the sn- which are not 100% accurate anyway, especially following the semi-chaos of the post WW1 production era at WRA--!! the black diamond inset, and the pigeon for the pigeon grade at the top rearmost upper receiver section is correct-for 1918, also, the first series - aka- old milled style ventilated ribs were not available until about 1920-21 era- so the solid matted rib is also correct--

I also agree with the Gough- as his style was the deep incised favored by many engravers who did the apprenticeship with the 1880-1900 era "masters"- yes, it is my understanding that Mr. Gough was employed by AH Fox Gun Co. in Phila- then left to work for WRA until about 1918--I am not a "Foxist" but if you were to pose this question on their collectors assn. forum website thingy-and asked for examples of the early "graded' Fox guns as engraved by Mr. Gough- and then could compare that with the same grades done later- in the late 1920's- you would see the difference.

No Jap company or engraver could do this kind of work- they can copy- look at their 'iron-on" engraving on the Parker repros and compare- if you dare- that to the engraving done on the pre-1913 LC Smiths or DH(E) and up grade Parkers built from 1890 to 1925, just to pick a few reference points-

Your M1912 is original, scarce, and not only a treasure- but you can actually shoot and kill birds and clays "tombstone dead" with it, and so can you grandson, should you have one and care to leave it to him. Please don't even consider selling it-

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by John Dallas

I'm betting it's something like Fukashima. Looks like a non-orginaal aftermarket job to me.

Let me guess- you also picked the tigers to win the World Series- and the lions to repeat the Dolphins 1972 win/loss record this 16 game season-- This is the real deal, the gent who owns it is indeed fortunate- Model 12's- and model 1912's like this come along about as often as an honest politician runs for and wins an office--:c uss:

[Jared V.]

The letter from Pauline is in the works.

[Bill Murphy]

Francis, no need to criticize posters who do not know. Internet readers know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, just from reading an entire thread rather than the single post of a self proclaimed "authority". I'm sure Mr. D. will refrain from appraisals of valuable Winchesters in the future. By the way, this will be my last reply to you until further notice. I must have been struck by lightning. By the way, this was your best and most pertinent post on any gun site in months.

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

Francis, no need to criticize posters who do not know. Internet readers know how to separate the wheat from the chaff, just from reading an entire thread rather than the single post of a self proclaimed "authority". This will be my last reply to you until further notice.

promises, promises, promises. I haven't been a Winchester guy since third grade, got my first Winchester at age 11- 20 gauge M12. I also have Dave Riffle's book, the Madis book, the Stadt book and tons of other now op WRA: catalogues, reference books, salesman's handbooks, etc-

Granted, this is a Parker forum, and not the Winchester Model 1912 and Model 12 Collectors Assn. Forum-BUT- a member who has a very fine Model 1912 Black Diamond Pigeon Grade posts a legitimate question that can be answered by some research- why should anyone demean his "Perfect Repeater", vis a vis the "Yaka-saki' inference. I won a Japanese Browning Model 12 "repro" 20 gauge- 28" mod. fioxed choke, ventilated rib at a DU Sponsor event, many years ago- I sold it back to Jay Poet in Clare, the supplier to the DU Event Cmte- I never even took it out of the box- It was a Model 12 like a Trojan grade is an AAHE--only by commonality of nomenclature- And none of the tools in my Kennedy and Gerstner tool chests were made in the land of the "Rising Sun' either-

I may not know Model 1912's and Model 12's as well as all other gentlemen on the PGCA, but I will bet you a "steel trap" from brother Dean Romig that I know them better that the majority of them. This M1912 is the "real deal" and to insult it with a 'after market Japanese re-do' is an Infamita!!

[Bill Murphy]

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price?

[Jared V.]

Bill, price is a secondary consideration on an early factory engraved Model 1912 as good as mine.

[Old and Reliable]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

I did proclaim your post to be a good one. Oh my God, I have been struck by lightning again, twice in two days. Did I tell that fellow that I would buy his gun, at his price?

Now it's time to "Man Up" and get out the old checkbook. But not to worry, I advised the gentleman here who is lucky to own this "Steinway" of shotguns NOT to sell it. So you are "Off de hook", as it were.

I now own 8 model 1912's-model 12's combined. I found a 1916 era M1912 20 gauge- 25" Mod. (Full was std) solid rib field gun in very good shape- of course, it has the 2.5" chambering, so RST shells will be the 'shell de jour" for it-came with the older canvas break-down case, cleaning rod (3 pc. wood with brass ferrules-) and should be great "second Grandson starter gun- as Jordy gets the other M12- the 20 made in 1931- 38" mod--the one my father and grandfather gave me on my 11th B'day-- got to continue the legacy of the "Perfect repeaters"--

[Big D]

Not Japanese? Hmmm. Am I now obligated to commit hari kari on a rusty M12 Op Rod?

[Bruce Day]

I have my grandfather's old Win Mod 1912 but in college I let a Japanese classmate shoot it. Its not for sale either.