Titanic Steel

[Bruce Day]

That's why the issue is unresolvable. To me its the difference between what Parker said and people's personal opinions. Nothing I can say or present will turn some folks from their opinions.

I'll continue to shoot low recoil loads most of the time and full loads when I need to late season and long shots.

[Bruce Day]

I just had a telephone conversation with Dean, whom I have high regard for and have always had much in common.

I told Dean an interesting anecdote. Last Tuesday hunting out in SW Kansas I was using a C Bernard 16 ga with 7/8oz #5 shot at about 1150 fps, a low pressure handload. I shot two pheasants from a fair distance , well knocked down, and lost both, never could find them, yet I got a good shot on them. I don't like to lose birds, yet most of us lost at least one bird that day, late season, hard feathers, long shots.

The next day I switched to my fluid steel P 16 with factory max 1 1/8 loads, then for the next two days did not lose a single bird. They were tough birds, one I hit in the head and body, it dropped both legs and flew for 200 yards, shedding feathers. Then it went straight up, typical of a head shot, and at the apex of its climb, dropped straight down dead, whereupon a hawk was on it immediately until Charlie got there before I did and chased it off. I feel that going to heavy and max loads made the difference and again, I hate losing shot birds.

To me, there are times when you need all the capabilities the gun will give you. Much of the time you can get away with reduced recoil loads, and to me reduced recoil means reduced shot load and/or speed from max. Sometimes I need all that I can get.

I think that Dean and I may be able to work out a FAQ answer that takes all that into effect and gives a complete answer to this question about "what can I shoot" that we get every couple weeks. The answer will deal with a check the condition of your gun issue also.

[10 bore]

try 6's all the time, i use 7/8ths oz 7's at 1100 in my 20 and 12 and it hit them hard out to 35 and 40 yds stone dead, remember these are shotguns not rifles. you can alway hit where you aim.i would just try smaller shot to fill in your patterns. i have shot geese out to 30 yds with 7/8ths oz bismuth 6's out of my tight choked 20( a 20 is not my goose hunting gun just in a pinch a few times) and for them most part they are dead or not going any where. i load ALL my shell. i think the fastest FPS i shoot is 1250 1 1/4 bismuth out of a 2 frame 12 but for the most part i shoot between 1100 to 1190 fps and not to many hit birds go too far if any where at all

[Bruce Day]

I've shot hundreds of pheasant out here. I like #6 for close and #5 for farther, I feel that 5's carry energy better. The shotgun ballistic tables bear out that 5's retain energy better. Don't hunt many ducks, but that was my experience with ducks also except I would go to a 12ga for bigger than #5 shot. I think a 16 is pretty well maxed out for a good pattern with #5 shot. I use #6's on the quail we have out here, they don't die very easy either. These birds out here you have to hit hard to kill and if you don't they will crawl away and you can lose them.

By the way, I hunted SW Kansas at the end of Nov, guided really, and took back up shots except when I was the only hunter near the bird. I exclusively used the 7/8 oz #5 shot handloads and did not lose a single bird in three days, limiting out for three days running. Now my shooting didn't deteriorate that fast .....the difference was that it was later season and the birds were heavier feathered and got up farther away. Some of the Nov shots were long distance after being hit by others. That's why I was so frustrated in Jan to lose birds and went to max loads.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

to me reduced pressure means reduced shot load and/or speed from max. Sometimes I need all that I can get.

Not always so. Again reloading has it's advantages. Although the pressures are lower recoil is a function of force = mass x acceleration ie. they are still gonna kick and be rougher on the stock than a light load.

From the Hodgdon Reloading Center

Federal Gold Medal Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4 oz. Longshot Powder 30.7gr Win. 209 primer Rem. R12L wad 7,700 PSI 1330 fps

Federal Gold medal Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4oz. Longshot Powder 33.4gr Win. 209 primer, WAA12F114 wad 7,200 PSI 1385 fps

Federal High Power Hull = 16ga Lead Shot 1 1/8 oz. Longshot Powder 25gr Win. 209 primer Rem. SP16 wad 8,300 PSI 1240 fps I believe a 1 1/8 ounce 16ga is a magnum loading.

As far as birds go there is not a bird more tenacious to life than a Giant Canada Goose ('cept maybe an Ostrich and don't like the taste of Ostrich), those who have had to dispatch enough birds that came down with a broken wing will know. Again, right size shot, right choke and within the working range of the load and gun and light loads will knock the snot out of them.

[Bruce Day]

I've been having troubles reloading Fed 12s and 16s. Have MEC progressives for both. I'm getting primers sunk down too deep and therefore the hammers don't hit deep enough. Both have been expanding too much to eject and I've been pulling the shells out with the rim of another shell. The Feds load low pressure and my buddy Mike Koranda loves them but lately I've just been throwing them away after firing, and that includes those nice paper Feds. If I don't sink the primers down, then I can't pull the shells out of the turret. Rems and Wins I have had no problem with.

[J.B. Books]

Well then maybe these will work.

Winchester AA Hull = Lead Shot 12ga 1 1/4 oz. 800-X 27.5gr Rem. 209P primer Rem. SP12 wad 7,800 PSI 1275 fps

Winchester XPert Hull = Lead Shot 16ga 1 1/8 oz. SR 4756 23gr Rem. 209P Rem. SP16 wad 8,900 PSI 1150 fps

[Bruce Day]

Well, I'm sure they would, and I reload low recoil for clays shooting all the time. Love the 7/8 loads in 12 and 16 ga, and 3/4 loads in 20, but is there something wrong with my barrels that I don't know about that would limit my use of these guns?

Those reloading formulae that you are using mean low pressure for barrels, and are not lower recoil than commercially made similar loads, recoil being formulaic based upon the speed and weight of the ejecta. I think I have pretty good barrels and wouldn't even consider a gun without good barrels.

I think I was imprecise when I spoke of low pressure above. What I should have said was that to me low recoil means reduced shot load and or speed from max. As you recognize, low recoil and low pressure are different, but generally connected. Low recoil is easier on the gun and shoulder, low pressure easier on the barrel hoop stress. Low pressure can be managed by speed of burning of the components, low recoil only by shot and shot cup weight , the weight of the gas coming out of the barrels and the speed of everything upon exit.

[J.B. Books]

Originally Posted by Bruce Day

is there something wrong with my barrels that I don't know about that would limit my use of these guns?

I would say obviously not. However all Parkers have 70+ year old wood and many guns are 100+ plus years old. Stocks do not crack by themselves. Screws can be loosened by recoil. The contact points between receiver and stock very small and will not be getting bigger. To me the point here is, you don't need heavy loads for many applications so it is good advice to limit their use if and when possible. The benefits of lighter loads are numerous, often better pattern percentages, they can help stop bad habits like lifting one's head off the stock in anticipation of recoil, they stretch reloading dollars further. They will kill game and clays better than one would think possible especially if all one has shot before is modern guns and heavy loads. It is good general advice to use lighter loads in old doubleguns when possible including fluid steel Parker's.

[James Brown]

OK, so assume good road, good tires, just changed oil, checked transmission fluid and rear end grease, 357, four speed, four barrel, how fast can I go without creating too much pressure???