20 ga. Chamber length

[Drew Hause]

Alliant 12g Reloading Guide
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...e=12&gtypeid=3

1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps in Winchester AA case, Win 209 primer & WAA wad
Unique 21 gr = 9,100 psi
Green Dot 19.5 gr = 9,300 psi
e3 17 gr = 10,450 psi
Red Dot 18 gr = 10,400 psi

[Southpaw]

Hmm, Btw Drew really just kidding on show me state. I think Missouri is cool. Especially some of the Indian artifacts that come out that place. Very cool. Maybe your time in the field you have found some cool arrowheads yourself.

Okay my conversion does not distinguish between the substance whether it is black powder or smokeless powder. It is 1 dram of something is equal to 27 thereabout grains of something. Now if there is a contingency that says this shell uses smokeless powder that is equivalent to x drams of black powder please let me know what that conversion is. Otherwise a dram of something is still just 27 grains of something.

Just went and found a box of shells. It says 2 1/2 dr. eq. I stand corrected. So in these off the shelf loads how do you know how much grains of powder do they actually use or how many grains. What your saying is that when using smokeless powder you can get by by using 80% less than black powder. Is that about right. I think your calculator just said use 18 grains as an average. Which I guess backs up what you were saying.

My head hurts. This is all as confusing as the tax code and Chinese stereo instructions.

[Drew Hause]

Here you go Todd
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...?f=13&t=455407

[Southpaw]

Thanks Drew. That all makes sense for something about 100 years ago. Why they don't just say what they use and how much of it in today's standards is mystifying. Maybe the Gubmint should do something about it. Just kidding.

Oh well, I am just going to put gas in it and drive it.

Later. I have showed my ignorance enough for 1 day. Btw did you know that 3.75 drams of black powder makes a boom when it blows up.

[Drew Hause]

This probably did also

Hatcher's Notebook, 1966
https://books.google.com/books?id=yE...C&pg=PA184&lpg
“E.C.” blank powder burns with extreme speed…to give a sharp report when it is not heavily confined. An enthusiast once got hold of some of this powder, being familiar with “E.C.” shotgun powder…and loaded a bunch of shells. To try out his new load he got out his fine Lefever gun, and put up a target in the shooting gallery to get the pattern. There was a terrific detonation, and a big piece was blown out the side of the barrel near the breech, flew across the room and buried itself in a wood bench.

[Southpaw]

This is confusing and has me wondering, again. I guess the calculators make allowances for modern powders but they don't actually tell you which allowance for which powder. They just use the black powder equivalency, on some. Unless the calculators have fine print to allow for modern powder in weight then should it really make a difference if black powder yields are the standard? I can see if reloading you need to convert the drams of black powder to the right modern powder weight due to its efficiency. However aren't the yields suppose to be the same based on the properties of black powder.

So if say I have a load that is suppose to be 3 drams of black powder equivalent then 1 dram is suppose be 27 grains of explosive yield for black powder times 3. So if black powder equivalency is the standard then that is all is necessary to use the calculators. They are not reloading to black powder coefficient calculators, telling you how much to drop it down to modern loads equivalency or are they. Hence I understand when using Drew's link to a calculator they already make the allowance and plop 18 grains in unless you change it yourself. Others don't.

However, I strongly agree that when reloading the black powder conversion to smokeless powders you need to account for it and then about 6 to 7 grains of modern smokeless powder is equal to the standard and reference black powder equivalent of 1 dram of black powder. Whether is 6 to 7 grains actually used for modern powder it is suppose to produce the same result as 27 grains of black powder, Right?

Anyway this is much harder than it needs to be just to figure out recoil but obviously you need to know which variables to use and how each are defined. I have a feeling there is a violent agreement in there somewhere. Its an apples to oranges comparing to apples discussion.

[Spin Drift]

Unreformed engineer here but when I did these calculations about a decade ago a 1oz load at 1200fps was 16 pounds force. (this was my standard Clays load for skeet and sporting clays). When I started to shoot International skeet, I made up some 1 1/8 oz loads at 1550 fps for second shot at stations 3, 4 and 5. These forced out at 35 lbs of free recoil. You had to be a man to pull the trigger a second time. I only used three of these shells per round.

[Heff]

I received my flat of 2 1/2" RST's today, I will see how these pattern and shoot. I also got my letter today on this gun and it matches to the gun completely, it even states the chokes as I measured them... cylinder/full

[Southpaw]

Originally Posted by Michael Moffa

Unreformed engineer here but when I did these calculations about a decade ago a 1oz load at 1200fps was 16 pounds force. (this was my standard Clays load for skeet and sporting clays). When I started to shoot International skeet, I made up some 1 1/8 oz loads at 1550 fps for second shot at stations 3, 4 and 5. These forced out at 35 lbs of free recoil. You had to be a man to pull the trigger a second time. I only used three of these shells per round.

I have been playing around with these recoil calculators that are free online. Most of the time for shotgun loads they say how many drams and not grains. However not certain if they use dram equivalent to black powder but I suspect they are using maybe modern powder weights/grains. Very confusing since modern powders you use less of it but boxes of shells are marked for black powder equivalency and you don't know how much or what type powder off the shelf loads are using. At least I can't find out. Active reloaders set it straight for me some. I think 35 lbs is probably about right on heavy loads. I think Drew and other are right but its dang confusing.

I know about heavy loads and getting the snot kicked out of me. I have a Browning BPS pump that I use for Turkey's. It has a 3.5 inch load I use, or it uses me. Feel like your loading a roman candle in your gun, and when it goes off your getting all of it in that gun. No recoil reduction. Testing patterns I shot about five rounds. The first two where surprising, shots 3-5 were just punishment. It paid off though. I took a really nice gobbler at 60 yards with that gun. Actually thought he was at 40 but it was in a pasture with a little roll to the hill and its really hard to judge distance in open ground like that, but when stepped it off it was 60 and it dropped in his tracks. If I thought he was at 60 would have let him go, still probably more luck than skill, but he was a big old bird and gobbled in front of us for an hour on other side of the field. He got as close as he was coming and strutted for 10 minutes back and forth daring our jake and hen setup to come to him. He was a crafty one and was about to walk off.

Big game for the Tigers tomorrow. Its do or don't time. Auburn has a history of being one of the most dangerous underdog teams in the country. If your an SEC football fan that is a must watch game. I predicted Auburn would beat Georgia a few weeks ago. Its really a pick um game.

[Bruce Day]

I’ve missed the discussion.
Just follow the Parker service load tables in TPS and the recommended loads from Parker. It’s not rocket science.
12ga
11/8 oz at 3dre or 1180to 1200fps

16ga
1 oz at 2 1/2 to 2 3/4 Dre at 1180 to 1200fps

20ga
7/8 oz at 2 1/4 Dre at 1200 FPS

Lots of cartridges are available. Cartridge length issues between 2 1/2” and 2 3/4” are much ado about nothing.

I’ve been off the last couple days chasing wild pheasants with a 16ga C beater and Bert. We’ve been limiting out. Temps today were high of 30 and winds 25 to 30. I’ve been using cheap Herters shells bought at Cabelas, the shame of it all.

Another day on the northern plains , then down to the central plains for more pheasant and quail then in a few weeks off to the southern plains for quail. I’ll live dangerously and stuff Remington 20 ga shells from Cabelas in the old Parker D 20 ga.