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Unread 02-05-2018, 06:39 PM   #11
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Dean Romig
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I disagree Todd - it's a W in MHO

The W in the bottom illustration more closely resembles the subject picture.







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Unread 02-05-2018, 07:30 PM   #12
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Gosh it probably is a W, again I just can't make it out very well. Do me a favor Dean and go the link that Garth posted earlier and I copied below. Scroll down a bit and on right side there is a black and white drawing with German description of what I guess is gunmaking. I have a friend that speaks German fluently and would ask him but he is overseas 7 hours ahead. Anyway if you go bottom of the drawing there is a capital "M" that appears to be at the start of the Word Mann, I guess. That letter has same looking characteristics as the one engraved on the gun.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/abo...s-dealers-f-j/

I also just went to Google at this webpage. Below the M and W look very familiar but there is a break on the M under that first upstroke that is not on the W. I don't know.

http://www.fontriver.com/i/fonts/ger...d_specimen.jpg
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Unread 02-05-2018, 07:49 PM   #13
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Awesome, look at the M and W in same font you sent and then look at letter on the gun. There is a gap or the first stroke is shorter. Anyway. Also in some of the W's is fonts you added to updated post have breaks along the top like you would expect to see with a W, but they don't exist on the gun letter. I know its confusing because some of the W's are all closed but the only difference between the M and W is that little break under the first line of letter.

Oh well. I now know more or less about German lettering than I ever thought I would know. It only matters if Kensal wants to chase W's or M's. I swear I keep looking and comparing and contrasting between letters it and it appears clearly to me. I guess this is what scholars trying to decode ancient language, hieroglyphics and text go through.

Last edited by Todd Poer; 02-05-2018 at 08:04 PM..
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Unread 02-05-2018, 08:53 PM   #14
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Closed at the top, open at the bottom = M
Closed at the bottom, open at the top = W

My vote is "W"

The trouble is that the engraver got three of the four openings closed and the more I look at it, the less I am sure what was intended. All the serifs (ornamentation strokes) are there for both letters. At least the crown is upright!
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Unread 02-05-2018, 09:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan.mclane View Post
Closed at the top, open at the bottom = M
Closed at the bottom, open at the top = W

The trouble is that the engraver got three of the four openings closed and the more I look at it, the less I am sure what was intended. All the serifs (ornamentation strokes) are there for both letters. At least the crown is upright!
I agree. I don't see the opening up top and some of the fonts have the serif (new word for me) that make that break at the top. They don't do it on the gun letter. Again the only thing that I see consistent between german lettering for the M and W's is that break under that first line or leg of the letter.

The crown and the letter on a gun that Garth sent a link to was clearly a W for Wilhelm, which was one of the Kaisers. This one is confusing at least to me. Anyway its a moderately fun and interesting discussion.
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Unread 02-05-2018, 10:16 PM   #16
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The top left on about all of the script M's have a roof-like slant while the W's have a serif.





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Unread 02-05-2018, 11:12 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Romig View Post
The top left on about all of the script M's have a roof-like slant while the W's have a serif


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Hmm, noticed that myself. Some it was prevalent, others not. The only thing that was consistent was that gap or break under first leg on all M's, which if you open the picture of gun and zoom in it is obvious break or opening. The tops were closed and serifs did not penetrate past closure. I have seen some W that had closed tops but the serifs went all the way through. None of the W's have a break under the first leg. There is so much potential mixing of style in that engrave.

Anyway regardless its either one or the other. But hopefully this helps the guy that needs it. Maybe the German gun guys can shine some light on it.
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Unread 02-06-2018, 12:12 AM   #18
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I'll go for either Prince Otto Windisch-Gratz, the grandson-in-law of Emperor Franz Joseph, or Prince Franz Joseph Windisch-Gratz, Emperor Franz Joseph's great grandson. If you check the Double Gun Journal volume 17, issue 2 (Summer 2006) there is an article called K&K Hoflieferanten written by Felix Neuberger. In the article there are photos of a brass plate on Prince Otto's Johann Springer double rifle case that has the identical crown over a monogram with the W. There is also a O intertwined with the W. There are also photos of Prince Franz's Johann Springer drilling which also has the identical crown over FJW in block letters. Not definitive, but I think they were the only Princes of that time period of the House Windisch-Gratz who would use the W and were royal.

Well, maybe not Franz Joseph, he was born in 1904 so he was probably too late to be the owner.
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Unread 02-06-2018, 07:18 AM   #19
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What I find interesting is the fact that there were several gunmakers that were somewhat dedicated to a family or crown. Like Wilhelm I and II I think also had dedicated makers and the W on their guns looked like W's. They probably had guns made from all sorts of German makers but obviously some were selected based on some reasons. The subject guns don't appear to be over the top ornate but more like go to everyday gun of a royal estate or for an owner that liked to hunt. Hard to say if they were gifts or not. My guess is that they were guns commissioned by the royal family for their own use, which that estate is now in Czech Republic.

Trying to figure out why a maybe somewhat dedicated Schwarzenberg gunmaker would make a gun with a W or M and not with an S. Going to the House of Schwarzenberg site that is below and going to era described the only guy in that mans world era was Johann blah, blah blah Maximin Schwarzenberg. My guess was maybe he went by Maximin, hence my M letter theory. I can't really see any names of people with Ws prominent in that so called 1860 to 1880 time frame. He would have been a teenager at that time in 1870's, which a matched pair of guns from the family gunmaker could have been a gift. Also go to link below and look at the crown used in sites wallpaper, it looks like a dead ringer for the crown on the gun. I think those are Max's guns since he was next in charge of the family affairs or maybe his wife's.

The other thought/hypothesis is that he married his wife Therese in 1889 when she was 19 years old (see below). She had a W in her last name. It was fashionable at the time for German women of means to shoot. Actually saw a sketch of a German Huntress in her fashionable attire and by her side was a SXS with a sling attached. 16 Gauge might have been suitable gauge of the fashion since this was age of Annie Oakley and I believe she toured Europe shooting her 16 gauge Parker, which might have been an influence. Guns could have been made earlier by the family gunsmith and given to her but then it might of had a TW in the engrave. I just don't know what was customary.

Also it appears that during this era when Johann and Therese were prominent that the Schwarzenburg family combined with his wife's Therese family holdings made them one of the largest landowners in Europe at the time up until the rise of Hitler and Nazi party. In essence if you were a large landowner at that time you probably either enjoyed hunting or at least had to look the part essentially if you were hosting hunting parties or events.

So only direct evidence we have is the guns with some engraving which popular opinion says is a W, and that the guns were made by the Schwarzenburg family gunsmith. As far as reasonable information that I have seen, the circumstantial evidence of that era points to one of these two prominent people as part of that family.

Here is link to Schwarzenberg Family site.
http://almanachdegotha.org/id101.html

2h) JOHANN Nepomuk Adolf Maria Hubert Maximin Fst zu Schwarzenberg (Vienna 29 May 1860-Vienna 1 Oct 1938); m.Vienna 27 Aug 1889 Therese Gfn von und zu Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg (Oberwaltersdorf 9 Feb 1870-Neunkirchen 12 Aug 1945)

Last edited by Todd Poer; 02-07-2018 at 08:53 AM..
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