Ithaca 20 ga Flues vs Fox Sterlingworth 20 ga

[Jack Selman]

My Philly Fox SW, bought several years ago from Ivory Beads' Jim and Jerry, ranks up there with my Parker Repro 20 as far as handling goes. Light and tight, it will serve all day in the woods and chasing clays. No disrespect to the Ithacas. Made American is what it's all about!

[BRDHNTR]

I think you're correct about the frame David. I should have taken my camera yesterday when I last looked at this 20ga fox sw. The shop owner practically grabbed me by the arm as I was leaving to make an offer, "any reasonable offer". I had the gun apart as I wanted to look it over well and was telling him how disappointed I was that the previous owner had blued the receiver. We'll see.

[OH Osthaus]

the bluing is most likely a cold blue - it will wear off quickly with use, and Birchwood Casey makes a cold blue remover if it botheres you too much.

personally - IMHO - the Fox is a much better gun. There is a reason Ithaca went to the NID to compete.

that price isn't bad - a 20 Sterlingworth without issues would go for much more in an area where doubles sell. I have looked at a couple lately in that same range. One was a 26" poorly restocked with old Bishop wood. the other was 28" and had some finish/wear issues but was on face. If this shop doesn't move doubles easily he may well bargin on it.

[Tony Ambrose]

Allen - buy it. You will not regret having a little SW 20 with 26" barrels. As recommended, grab some BC remover if you need immediate gratification, but it probably will wear quickly.

What else can you find for under $1000 that would bring the kind of satisfaction that you'll get from that little Fox? Not much in my opinion. And given that they were the Fox bargain gun.....essentially an "everyman's shotgun", it is an amazingly well built piece that takes a beating and keeps on ticking!

[Cold Spring]

Allen, I don't remember seeing the gun post on the Fox site and if I missed it this could be redundant. The serial number you cited is certainly a Sterlingworth number but the factory was doing some funky things to survive in the late 1930's. Fox SP/SPE Grade guns were made with blued frames and somewhat different barrel breech dimensions and are quite rare. The blued frame on the gun you're looking at, with everything else looking original, sounds odd and intriguing to me. It's also know that Savage execs had some leeway to get special features done on production guns. You might check the frame bar (water table) to see if "SP" is stamped anywhere. This is a very very long shot but if it turns out you'll want to go buy a megalotto ticket too. Frank

[Researcher]

When Ithaca introduced the Flues Model in 1909, they were making their smallbore very light and delicate.



These are the guns often seen with cracked frames.

These guns were probably fine with the light 2 1/2 inch shells they were designed for, but North American Nimrods of the more is better ilk were for sure stuffing the heaviest loads they could buy in these little wands, and Ithaca saw they had a problem. By the mid-1920s, Ithaca had beefed up their Flues doubles quite a bit. In the 1912 through at least 1915 Ithaca catalogues they give their smallbore weights as --

16-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4
20-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4
28-ga 4 3/4 to 5 1/4

In the July 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 5 lbs. 14 ozs. to 6 1/2
20-ga 5 1/2 to 6
28-ga 5 to 5 1/2

In the December 1, 1919, Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 to 6 3/4
20-ga 5 3/4 to 6
28-ga 5 1/4 to 5 3/4

In the 1925 Ithaca catalogue --

16-ga 6 1/4 to 6 3/4
20-ga 6 to 6 1/2
28-ga 5 3/4 to 6 1/4

Savage didn't actually begin stating their Fox doubles were chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells until the second printing of the brown "art deco" Fox catalogue, usually found with 1938 or 1939 Retail Price sheets --



From about 1939, the Savage built Fox doubles were stamped on the left barrel --



This stamp is also found on Fox doubles of any vintage that were sent back to Savage for service and rechambered to 2 3/4 inches and reproofed.

[BRDHNTR]

The Ithaca Flues 20 ga that I have is ser# S377944 which is 1924 vintage. It is rugged for a little 20 and in excellent condition.

Frank, when I'm next at that gunshop, I'll check the water table to see if 'SP' is stamped on the table. I don't win much with $1 scratch tickets so I don't bother with the mega lottery!

[Harold Pickens]

Can you imagine one of the utility grade guns of today, such as the CZ, Huglu, and others holding up for a hundred years like the Foxes, Parkers
,LC Smith, Lefever, and Ithacas. My friend got a new CZ sxs 20 for his son and it already has had 2 issues that necessitated it being returned for service.
The young man is a sxs fan, so I gave him the choice between borrowing one of my SW 20's or my Lefever Durston Special 20 w/ ejectors to use on his hunting trip. He chose the SW and he did it proud.
I think I would pick up that SW if I were you.

[Researcher]

An SP-/SPE-Grade would be marked like this on the watertable --



The Savage Proof Mark is an SP in an oval --

[BRDHNTR]

Dave Noreen: The frame and foreend latching mechanisims on myy Ithaca Flues 20 ga double (1924) ser# 37944 look to be blued. Now, this gun belonged to an uncle of kine who gave it to me in the late 60's early 70's when he decided to stop hunting and I had returned from Viet Nam and needed a shotgun. It's been in my famly for most of these years except for a period of time when it was in the posession of a close friend (who did nothing with it at all). While it's possible that my dad may have cold blued it, I really doub it as he would have said something to me. I can find no trace of any case colors on this double, none on the watertable, fore end latching assemblies, top lever and tang etc. Is it possible that this gun could have come from the factory with a blued receiver and no case colors? It's a mystery to me.