Old assumptions die hard

[Tom Flanigan]

Old opinions and experiences die hard although they are sometimes based on flawed assumptions that become ingrained but are nevertheless incorrect. My recent challenge to Paul and others with respect to pressure being a factor in recoil is a case in point.

I started reloading at 14 years old because the then new plastic wads and wraps were replacing the old fiber wads in factory shells. I could no longer buy the short range loads I believed I needed. I did a lot of patterning back in the day with the new loads and the fiber wad loads. The loading companies stated that the patterns with the new loads would not be smaller, just denser. But, at least in the guns I patterned, the patterns were definitely smaller at 20 and 40 yards, the ranges that I patterned my guns. The first year I used the old Lee hand loader which could be purchased for $9.98. It worked and I got my fiber wad loads but it was slow and sometimes the plastic shell crimps would open. I always had to empty my pockets of shot at the end of the day.

The second year I bought a MEC 600 Jr. and I was in heaven. I then purchased a loading manual and found and loaded low pressure loads. I equated low pressure with low recoil simply because my low-pressure loads kicked a lot softer than the factory stuff. I was certainly sensitive to recoil changes in different loads when shooting at paper. But my low-pressure loads were coincidently also low speed loads. I attributed the softer recoil to the pressures but in fact it was the speed of the load that was causing the decrease in recoil. For 54 years I believed low pressure equated to softer recoil and never realized the flaw in my assumption.

Then some of the boys on this site set me straight. At first, I was reluctant to believe them without proof from someone with a ballistics background, so ingrained was my long-term belief. But then I saw the light and mended my thinking. I was just reading one of my old books by Michael McIntosh and he pointed out that pressure has nothing to do with recoil. I felt a bit ashamed of myself for being so wrong for so long. So, I am coming clean and I am going to punish myself. I am sending myself to bed tonight without supper.

[OH Osthaus]

not an uncommon assumption

as i have said before-for old guns, pressure is for the barrels - recoil is for the wood

[Pa SxS]

Go ahead and eat, it's not too late yet. You and thousands of other reloaders believed the same thing as noted by the same question on various shotgun related sites.

[Double Lab]

Another urban legend that drives me crazy is this 1400fps hyper velocity crap needed in shotshells to reduce the lead needed on long crossers. Ballistically a round sphere is not very efficient. The faster you launch it the quicker it slows down so at 40yds. a load started at 1150-1200fps. will be within +/- 50fps of a load started at 1400fps. The only measurable difference will be the brutal recoil of the faster load.

I'm glad you have seen the light Tom. Now we just have to work on that #9 stuff for grouse.

[Gary Laudermilch]

I got into a bit of an argument one day on the clays range with a hard core registered shooter about shotshell velocity. He was claiming the 1300 fps loads he was shooting cut his lead in half. After we got back to the clubhouse we did the math. I think we used 30 yds crossing at 45 mph as criteria. It turns out that the increased velocity did in fact reduce the lead required - by 4 inches. Most people cannot perceive 4 inches at that distance. The next time I saw the guy he was still shooting his screamers. My dad used to say "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up". I think that little ditty applies to a bunch of folks.

Tom, don't discount pressure as inconsequential. It certainly affects pattern performance.

[Tom Flanigan]

I'm glad you have seen the light Tom. Now we just have to work on that #9 stuff for grouse.[/QUOTE]

Nice try Daryl but that one is going to be a lot tougher to break. My perspective on small shot on grouse came originally from my grandfather and grouse hunters he knew, some of whom I talked to about the subject in their later years. They used 10's including one who shot for the NY market when it was still legal. It worked well for me and I have taken a very large numbers of grouse over the years with #9's. It made sense to me in tight cover to throw 7/8 oz. of shot with 506 #9 pellets vs. 302 #7 1/2. Plus none of the great books by Spiller, Foster, Schaldach and others recommended 7 1/2 for grouse. In fact they all spoke against it.

I will probably go to my grave touting the advantages of #9 for grouse. We all have to decide for ourselves what we think best but this is one area that you and I are going to have to disagree on Daryl.

[Tom Flanigan]

Originally Posted by Gary Laudermilch

I got into a bit of an argument one day on the clays range with a hard core registered shooter about shotshell velocity. He was claiming the 1300 fps loads he was shooting cut his lead in half. After we got back to the clubhouse we did the math. I think we used 30 yds crossing at 45 mph as criteria. It turns out that the increased velocity did in fact reduce the lead required - by 4 inches. Most people cannot perceive 4 inches at that distance. The next time I saw the guy he was still shooting his screamers. My dad used to say "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up". I think that little ditty applies to a bunch of folks.

Tom, don't discount pressure as inconsequential. It certainly affects pattern performance.

I don't discount the impact of high pressures on patterns. I will always chose the lower pressure loads. For example, my low pressure old pigeon load for 1 1/4 oz. shells for turkeys, ducks and geese at around 1200 fps. are wonderful patterning loads. Much better than the hot 1350 fps. or better 1 1/4 oz factory loads. I've patterened them all and the slower speed lower pressure loads provide the best patterns, by far. I could never see the logic of high velocity loads in any gauge.

And I could never understand trying to cram more that 1 1/4 oz. in a 12 bore or 1 oz. of shot in a 28 bore for that matter. All it does is create a lot of recoil and long shot strings.

Low pressure, moderate speeds and sensible loads for each gauge is what makes sense for me.

[Randy Roberts]

Tom some times those old assumptions never die. I have taken information in print from shotshell and powder mfg's to the local gun club and tried to convince them of this more than once. I really don't think I ever converted a single person from their thinking that pressure translates to recoil. I have tried so many explanations it's ridiculous and finally realized that when you show it to them in print from scientifically conducted experiments and they still won't buy it that it's time to give it up. Welcome aboard !

[Tom Flanigan]

You guys convinced me. I see the light. If one doesn't accept proven facts he is a fool. Now that I've come around on pressure, I hope Daryl sees the light and comes around on #9's for grouse . I'm going to work on him.

[Harold Pickens]

Daryl, I was thinking the same thing.