Buying on the internet...

Jawjadawg · 03-24-2014, 09:11 AM

I want to add a recent Gunbroker experience so that perhaps a few others can learn from my mistake, or perhaps improve your process of dealing with online sellers and transactions.

I recently picked up a Manhattan Arms 16ga off Gunbroker. If you aren't familiar, Manhattan Arms was one of the trade branded guns that were actually The Fulton by Hunter Arms. None of the Hunter Arms trade branded guns turn up very often in 16ga, so I was excited to see one.

The gun looked good on the internet, with nice colors but the pictures were a bit blurry. Listing promised EXCELLENT. At $430 I purchased with assurance that the listed 26" barrels were uncut. So the EXCELLENT condition gun arrives with the minor handling marks promised in the wood and metal, but also with about a dozen Abe Lincoln sized areas of pitting up and down the exterior of the barrels. I don't know about you, but I don't consider rust to be a "minor handling mark". The pits had been covered over with cold blue so that they wouldn't show in the blurry pictures. Naturally, the seller claimed to have missed those imperfections. Uncut barrels show up with a small gap between the barrels and measuring 26-3/8" instead of the listed 26". Obviously shortened. The auction was AS-IS, which I hadn't worried about since the seller on Gunbroker: Freeman_Arms in Drexel, Mo., had promised the gun in excellent condition.

So we start going back and forth, politely even though this person starts saying they didn't see those items, isn't very knowledgeable on vintage guns, etc - basically claiming ignorance. We haggled back and forth about either returning or a significant refund but my fairness was always met with another attempt to nickle and dime. The gun was carefully packaged and upon receipt the seller says, "Well I got the gun back but you aren't going to be happy. The forearm got loose and chattered along the barrel, getting in to the blue. I see the package was insured. You should file a claim with insurance."

Surprised? Yes, I was, but I shouldn't have been surprised at all given the earlier misrepresentations.

I asked for pictures of the new "damage", which I was fortunately able to match up with my own pictures I had taken of the gun, and with the sellers own pictures. If I wouldn't have had the pictures then I am confident the dealer would have continued down the path of claiming the gun had been ruined by the forearm. I was incredulous that they would claim a tiny scratch to the blue had basically ruined the value of a gun that had rust pits and shortened barrels, but there you go. Fortunately, I had evidence that the damage was already present. DOCUMENT. DOCUMENT. DOCUMENT.

I was FINALLY able to get a refund, but this charade continued until I assured the seller that I intended file a fraud claim with Gunbroker and also to sing about their behavior on the internet. That is one seller whom I will never do business with again in the future.

Why am I telling this story? Naturally, this gun is now for sale again on Gunbroker, only now at a higher price after I convinced the seller these are really, really rare - but incredibly - still no mention of the rust pits, cold blue, and the barrels are still misrepresented as being 26" in length. Go figure.

Kensal Rise · 03-24-2014, 10:48 AM

So... All we really need to remember is NOT to trust these guys:

Freeman_Arms in Drexel, Mo.

From the "Show Me" state yet...

OH Osthaus · 03-24-2014, 11:10 AM

I expect they are not alone

I have been watching GB for a certain something. I am amazed at the nuber of scant descriptions with fuzzy pictures and "as is". I leave those for someone else.

I looked at one item over the weekend where the seller had a lot of good feedbacks and only a few poor ones. Then I read them. __ the good ones were all as a buyer and the poor all as a seller.

Its a jungle out there

Bill Murphy · 03-24-2014, 11:14 AM

The "buyer-seller" feedback is something to be careful of. When I start selling on ebay, I will have 100% positive feedback on hundreds of transactions, but I have never sold an item.

Richard Flanders · 03-25-2014, 06:18 PM

I'm sitting here thinking about the few guns I've bought off the Net. I think only one of them, a Parker, was as described when I opened the box. The rest all had negatives that were conveniently not mentioned on the websites or even in phone conversations. From major dealers too, and major issues. One C Daly fwt wasn't out of the box long enough for my box cutter to cool off - it was a wreck. Top rib totally flapping loose for at least 8" and other issues related to the poor redo. I think if I had shot one shell in it the bbls would have separated and fallen onto the ground. Unbelievable - and not from a small dealer that one. And it seems that you always hear, "Gee, I didn't notice that here in the shop".... right.

B. Dudley · 03-25-2014, 06:49 PM

I will add them to the short list of sellers to NEVER buy from.
Sometimes who is doing the selling is more important than what they are selling.

Bill Zachow · 03-26-2014, 06:11 AM

What amazes me is how the internet has brought out the worst sort crooks. I was lucky enough to have started my "non seen buying" back in the day of the Gun List. Never had a problem. Did not buy a lot but bought good. Some Parker lifters, Colt single actions and various Winchesters. Today, I have a simple rule. If I can't hold it in my hands, I am not going to buy. Life is too short to have to put up with idiots.

Chris T. · 03-26-2014, 09:52 AM

I once bought a DHE from a well known nation wide sporting goods retailer/gun dealer, no BSing you, when I opened the box my wife walked by and asked "why is the barrel fat like that?". There was a bulge 3-4" from the muzzle you could see from across the room. They took it back with no dispute, but I ate the shipping, the trip to the bank, the trip to the post office and a roll of packing tape etc. It's frustrating when you can't deal face to face, but I will say that any dealings I've had on the PGCA website have been excellent.

C.O.B. · 03-26-2014, 11:02 AM

I don't use Gun Broker to amount to much and if it's listed as is that means no deal to me. With the cost of shipping back and forth,the time in transit and the potential of a problem it's a scary procedure. I'm considering the purchaseof an English hammergun (don't ask me why I couldn't explain it) from a reputable dealer whom I have heard nothing but good things. He will be at the Southern and I will examine it in person but to quote the dealer "I'll bring it if I still have it" pitch my reply was "If it's meant to be it will be there".

I must agree with Chris that any gun I have bought from our members has been exactly as described with no hidden issues.

Steve McCarty · 03-26-2014, 02:45 PM

I have never dealt with with Gunbroker, but I have with Guns International. I had a good experience. The gun was a Remington Model 11, 16 gauge. It was described as being nearly new with light rust spots and that is what it is. Just a light coating of very fine, hairlike rust. The gun is otherwise excellent. Price was $400. I had to pay my dealer an additional $45. The price was a bit high, but not too much, and the 16's don't come along every day. It is a 1937 gun. Where has it been all of these years?

I had a detailed telecon with the seller before i sent the cash. These guys do work on their reputation. The crook who is described above, should not be allowed to sell guns on the site. What a shame.