Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Parker Forums General Parker Discussions

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 04-17-2018, 09:52 PM   #11
Member
Bruce Day
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Bruce Day's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,993
Thanks: 552
Thanked 15,605 Times in 2,666 Posts

Default

The wood was sound on the VH20, no prior damage or visible cracks, no oil soaking. It was a standard commercial pressure load, I’d guess about a 9000 psi chamber pressure in order to cycle those semi autos.

The hull had not split, I would have noticed that on the manual extraction. I don’t reload those shells either because they split after a few reloads , some less. I did have one of the many I shot that day split downwardly from the crimp. Those are harder to pull out and noticeable. Not that one.

Brian, we go through maybe 35,000 rounds of Federal Estate 20 ga cartridges over summer shooting at our BSA camp. They are great shells, right priced for us and never a misfire, hangfire, split case or pierced primer. A little dirty with the powder but the boys have to be taught gun cleaning anyway.
Bruce Day is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2018, 01:59 AM   #12
Member
Wes Shirah
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 50
Thanks: 13
Thanked 74 Times in 21 Posts

Default

Had the same ammo ruin the ejector timing on one of my Arrieta's. Cheap primers are the culprit. They swell during detonation...everytime. They swell so badly that they make it almost impossible to break open the action to extract the casings. I no longer shoot anyone's steel base ammo unless it's in an auto loader. Typically, Walmart also carries Federal 1-1/8 ounce loads in 7.5, 8 & 9's (Which have Brass Bases). IMHO it's far superior to the Winchester rounds...Never had any trouble with it in any of my fine double guns.
William Shirah is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to William Shirah For Your Post:
Unread 04-18-2018, 08:04 AM   #13
Member
Southpaw
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 653
Thanks: 634
Thanked 275 Times in 197 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Shirah View Post
Had the same ammo ruin the ejector timing on one of my Arrieta's. Cheap primers are the culprit. They swell during detonation...everytime. They swell so badly that they make it almost impossible to break open the action to extract the casings. I no longer shoot anyone's steel base ammo unless it's in an auto loader. Typically, Walmart also carries Federal 1-1/8 ounce loads in 7.5, 8 & 9's (Which have Brass Bases). IMHO it's far superior to the Winchester rounds...Never had any trouble with it in any of my fine double guns.
That is an interesting comment and maybe some merit to all or part of it. Indirectly or directly your saying or suggesting brass being may be softer than steel, it can absorb some of the flexing due to primer deformation. Btw are we certain that a so called cheaper primer is the culprit, as compared to more quality primer in a steel case, they might do the same thing. I do know that primer piercing is an issue even with rifle rounds that have brass casings but are at higher pressures. May not be any absolutes or single cause but maybe a combination of things. I will have to admit though I have no knowledge of what causes a primer piercing.

At any rate going forward for me for now that might be something to always consider about not using steel for any breach loading gun, especially some of these older guns. I have some newer sxs and o/u that that for me going forward will give me pause loading steel based shells for any breach loading gun.
Todd Poer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2018, 11:51 AM   #14
Member
GH-16
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,002
Thanks: 5,111
Thanked 1,304 Times in 445 Posts

Default

My story along these lines involve an older .410 hardware store SxS hammer gun with fluid steel barrels

This was a friends gun which he had shot for several seasons while dove hunting. He was using factory ammo when he pulled up on a dove, pulled the trigger & seconds later he was on the ground holding his right eye screaming in pain. After all the dust settled and we got him emergency medical care, we looked the gun over to see what happened. The hammer was broken into two pieces & the firing pin had blown out the back of the breech ball. We never did find the firing pin. The conclusion we came to for the cause of this failure was a pierced primer that let chamber pressure back into the action which caused the firing pin to blow out and did the hammer damage at the same time.

Luckily my friend was wearing shooting glasses which protected him some. The glasses did shatter and he did loose his vision in that eye. The doctor said that if he hadn't been wearing the glasses there was a good possibility he would have been killed.

I also have a sad story where my best friend was stuck & killed by lightning while we were out dog training in June of '97. We were only about forty feet apart from each other. He was killed and I only had minor muscle/nerve related issues out of the ordeal. Emotionally I still have issues to this day from it.
Paul Ehlers is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Paul Ehlers For Your Post:
Unread 04-18-2018, 12:27 PM   #15
Member
Richard Flanders
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Richard Flanders's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,517
Thanks: 8,480
Thanked 5,538 Times in 1,717 Posts

Default

Holy cow Paul. Brutal story. I know about the one eye thing. It's not fun.

As for Bruce's story, I certainly have noticed the cheapening of shotgun ammo over the years. The bases are of thinner, and cheaper metal, the rims out of round(AA's especially) and the primers are thinner and easier to cave in during setting with one of the old hand tools. For some you just can't use those as you'll cave in every primer, especially if you're using older stout based paper shells. I sure never had that issue when I was using gradpa's old hand kit on vintage ribbed green Remington paper hulls in the early 60's. So, I have no trouble seeing a modern primer getting severely pierced and degassing out the back. I've had a lot of mildly pierced primers, generally on hammer guns that are set to activate the stout old primers. New primers just don't require that much of a whack to set them off so the hammer guns pierce them. I'm sure it's the same with older hammerless guns. They're designed for the stout older primers. There had to be some design criteria for how hard the hammers struck; surely they didn't just make up a stout spring, install it and dry fire it once and say, "that sounds good enough". They would have engineered and experimented until they got what worked properly.
Richard Flanders is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2018, 12:49 PM   #16
Member
Southpaw
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 653
Thanks: 634
Thanked 275 Times in 197 Posts

Default

Wow Paul. Incredible life experiences. One of those events is enough for most folks. There are lots of beautiful and wonderful things in life, and in a moments notice tragedy can happen. You live an active lifestyle at some point in time everyone is exposed to some tough stuff.

I am wondering if there is enough intel or occurrence reporting on this to get back to shell manufacturers. The quickest way would be a lawsuit but we already live in to litigious a society. If they are being penny wise pound foolish for cheap components then they need to know about it stop making it. What you described with your friend with an inexpensive old gun and inexpensive shells sounds like a perfect storm, even in the so called diminutive 410 but I think pressures on those loads are on par with any gun and deserve respect.

I have healthy respect for lightening really sorry to hear about your friend. I really hope some day you can find peace. Bad things sometimes happen to good people for no dang reason.
Todd Poer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2018, 12:57 PM   #17
Member
C.O.B.
Forum Associate
 
Rich Anderson's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 6,072
Thanks: 2,217
Thanked 6,320 Times in 2,082 Posts

Default

These incidents are why I don't use cheap ammo. You get what you pay for. If you can shoot a Parker, Fox or any other valuable gun you can certainly afford decent shells.
__________________
There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter...Earnest Hemingway
Rich Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Rich Anderson For Your Post:
Unread 04-18-2018, 04:29 PM   #18
Member
B. Dudley
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Brian Dudley's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 10,546
Thanks: 476
Thanked 17,411 Times in 4,591 Posts

Default

Early vs. late stock head inletting. As i described earlier.

5522B2BB-5AC0-4B6B-B2EB-42083FB2583D.jpg
__________________
B. Dudley
Brian Dudley is offline   Reply With Quote
Visit Brian Dudley's homepage!
Unread 04-18-2018, 05:55 PM   #19
Member
Mills
PGCA Lifetime Member
Since 3rd Grade
 
Mills Morrison's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 10,301
Thanks: 14,182
Thanked 12,306 Times in 4,411 Posts

Default

Very interesting
Mills Morrison is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-18-2018, 08:19 PM   #20
Member
Jeff Christie
PGCA Member
 
Jeff Christie's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 538
Thanks: 2,866
Thanked 408 Times in 211 Posts

Default

As they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words." Thank you Brian.
Jeff Christie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2023, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.