Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Non-Parker Specific & General Discussions Shotgun Shell Reloading

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Bismuth in a lead recipe
Unread 11-22-2019, 08:56 PM   #1
Member
Jeff Elder
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 55
Thanks: 73
Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts

Default Bismuth in a lead recipe

Can you change out from lead to bismuth in a reload recipe?
Jeff Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jeff Elder For Your Post:
Visit Jeff Elder's homepage!
Unread 11-22-2019, 09:09 PM   #2
Member
OH Osthaus
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Rick Losey's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,472
Thanks: 989
Thanked 5,516 Times in 2,434 Posts

Default

no.
__________________
"If there is a heaven it must have thinning aspen gold, and flighting woodcock, and a bird dog" GBE
Rick Losey is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Rick Losey For Your Post:
Unread 11-22-2019, 10:03 PM   #3
Member
Jeff Elder
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 55
Thanks: 73
Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Losey View Post
no.
What's the difference in them? I'm not a engineer so I need a basic reason.
Jeff Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Visit Jeff Elder's homepage!
Unread 11-23-2019, 12:32 AM   #4
Member
J. A. EARLY
PGCA Member
 
Jerry Harlow's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,486
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 1,616 Times in 572 Posts

Default

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/relo...reloading-data


Matching Shot Type and Size to Reloading Data

It is easy to assume that all shot types can be reloaded similarly; after all, they look the same – being round balls of metal. However, in loading shotgun shells, this assumption cannot be further from the truth.

The two characteristics of shot that change reloading data are shot hardness and density.

Shot hardness has a direct effect on chamber pressure. Softer shot produces lower pressure; harder shot raises chamber pressure dramatically. The softest shot type is lead. The hardest shot types are steel and tungsten. Bismuth falls between lead and steel. This is the primary reason that lead shot reloading data can never be used with any other type of shot.

Shot density affects how much room in the shell case the shot charge will take up. To try to simplify shot density, think of it this way:

A coffee cup of steel shot weighs less than a coffee cup of bismuth shot
A coffee cup of bismuth shot weighs less than a coffee cup of lead shot
A coffee cup of tungsten shot is heavier than all the others

Just remember, in shotshell reloading the reload data must be specific to the type of shot being used. Hodgdon reloading data meets this requirement.
Jerry Harlow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Jerry Harlow For Your Post:
Unread 11-23-2019, 04:05 PM   #5
Member
Jeff Elder
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 55
Thanks: 73
Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Harlow View Post
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/relo...reloading-data


Matching Shot Type and Size to Reloading Data

It is easy to assume that all shot types can be reloaded similarly; after all, they look the same – being round balls of metal. However, in loading shotgun shells, this assumption cannot be further from the truth.

The two characteristics of shot that change reloading data are shot hardness and density.

Shot hardness has a direct effect on chamber pressure. Softer shot produces lower pressure; harder shot raises chamber pressure dramatically. The softest shot type is lead. The hardest shot types are steel and tungsten. Bismuth falls between lead and steel. This is the primary reason that lead shot reloading data can never be used with any other type of shot.

Shot density affects how much room in the shell case the shot charge will take up. To try to simplify shot density, think of it this way:

A coffee cup of steel shot weighs less than a coffee cup of bismuth shot
A coffee cup of bismuth shot weighs less than a coffee cup of lead shot
A coffee cup of tungsten shot is heavier than all the others

Just remember, in shotshell reloading the reload data must be specific to the type of shot being used. Hodgdon reloading data meets this requirement.

Thank you for breaking that down. Fully understand now.
Jeff Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Visit Jeff Elder's homepage!
Unread 11-23-2019, 06:20 PM   #6
Member
Victor Wasylyna
PGCA Lifetime
Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 241
Thanks: 437
Thanked 493 Times in 123 Posts

Default

Swapping bismuth for lead does not concern me. See this thread:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...&highlight=Wsf

I tested the same load twice: one test with 1.25 oz of bismuth and one test with 1.25 oz of lead. All else the same. I was not surprised when the velocity and pressure data were essentially the same for both loads.

What’s heavier? 1.25 oz of bismuth or 1.25 oz lead?

The difference in volume is easily accommodated with less fiber wad in the shot cup.

-Victor
Victor Wasylyna is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Victor Wasylyna For Your Post:
Unread 11-23-2019, 09:23 PM   #7
Member
J. A. EARLY
PGCA Member
 
Jerry Harlow's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,486
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 1,616 Times in 572 Posts

Default

Fine and dandy, for the 10 in a low pressure load. Squeeze it into a 20 or 28 gauge loading it to standard velocity and pressure for modern loads for say an automatic and this may not be true. A 20 gauge barrel in a vintage gun never approaches the thickness of a 12 or 10. The question was a general one, not specifying gauge, velocity, or pressure of the load to switch from lead to bismuth.

So why monkey with it when bismuth loading data is readily available? Bismuth is harder but weighs less, so there will be more shot in the column to reach the same weight thus probably requiring a new deeper shot cup wad in the smaller gauge so now one has changed not only the shot thus hardness, but also the wad used. It will not require a filler in the shot cup but will take up more room. So we are not using the original lead data.

But if one insists, they could always send it off for testing like you did.
Jerry Harlow is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-24-2019, 07:43 AM   #8
Member
Ron Scott
PGCA Member
 
Ronald Scott's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 190
Thanks: 167
Thanked 292 Times in 88 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor Wasylyna View Post
Swapping bismuth for lead does not concern me. See this thread:

http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...&highlight=Wsf

I tested the same load twice: one test with 1.25 oz of bismuth and one test with 1.25 oz of lead. All else the same. I was not surprised when the velocity and pressure data were essentially the same for both loads.

What’s heavier? 1.25 oz of bismuth or 1.25 oz lead?

The difference in volume is easily accommodated with less fiber wad in the shot cup.

-Victor
Great info Victor -- thank you for sharing. There is so much misinformation out there that gets passed on from one person to another without anyone actually testing its veracity. That's why I really enjoyed the series of articles, "Finding Out For Myself" by Sherman Bell in DGJ. He dispels many of they myths we have taken as facts for years.

Question: when the testing lab tests a load for pressure does their test gun have a choke or is it cylinder bore? I would assume it's cylinder bore which brings up the issue of how soft vs hard shot gets squeezed as the shot column enters the choke area of the barrel. Again, I am assuming, that steel or bismuth, being harder than lead isn't so easily squeezed down to the smaller diameter and thus would cause higher pressure than the softer lead.

I don't agree that the pressure difference (if any) can be attributed to the volume of the shot column. As you say, and ounce of lead weighs the same as an ounce of bismuth -- so what difference could it make? The only difference is hardness and the shot column's resistance to the squeezing down at the choke.

Another myth probably but I've heard you should not shoot steel shot through a full choke because you could ring the barrel just ahead of the choke constriction. I am sure someone has tested this, I just haven't seen the results.
__________________
We lose ourselves in the things we love; we find ourselves there too. -Fred Bear
Ronald Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 11-24-2019, 08:06 AM   #9
Member
Jeff Elder
PGCA Member

Member Info
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 55
Thanks: 73
Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Harlow View Post
Fine and dandy, for the 10 in a low pressure load. Squeeze it into a 20 or 28 gauge loading it to standard velocity and pressure for modern loads for say an automatic and this may not be true. A 20 gauge barrel in a vintage gun never approaches the thickness of a 12 or 10. The question was a general one, not specifying gauge, velocity, or pressure of the load to switch from lead to bismuth.

So why monkey with it when bismuth loading data is readily available? Bismuth is harder but weighs less, so there will be more shot in the column to reach the same weight thus probably requiring a new deeper shot cup wad in the smaller gauge so now one has changed not only the shot thus hardness, but also the wad used. It will not require a filler in the shot cup but will take up more room. So we are not using the original lead data.

But if one insists, they could always send it off for testing like you did.
Sorry about that.

16 gauge 1 once load in a Chedite 2 3/4 hul.
I have found A bismuth recipe for Remington that I like. It's 1200 fps with 8500 psi. Only problem is I'm only getting one reload out of Remington hull before it splits.
I searched around and cheddite hulls get good reviews. Only problem is in my 16 gauge manual from BP is all their chedite recipes for one once are fairly hot. And no I don't want to shoot less than one once.
Jeff Elder is offline   Reply With Quote
Visit Jeff Elder's homepage!
Unread 11-24-2019, 03:19 PM   #10
Member
J. A. EARLY
PGCA Member
 
Jerry Harlow's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,486
Thanks: 2,235
Thanked 1,616 Times in 572 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Scott View Post

Another myth probably but I've heard you should not shoot steel shot through a full choke because you could ring the barrel just ahead of the choke constriction. I am sure someone has tested this, I just haven't seen the results.
This is not a myth. Because in steel shot one is using shot two or three times larger to get the same killing power as lead. Thus if one liked BBs for geese, they now skip BBB and go to T which at 40 yards delivers 12.5 foot pounds of energy which approaches but does not quite reach the 13.8 of lead.

T steel is .020 which is approaching #4 buck of .024. When the full choke compresses the steel pellets which do not give any you can get bridging of shot, shot that is not going anywhere as they touch each other and the barrel may ring or split, especially if it is an older gun not designed for steel shot. The barrels that are designed for steel and have the thickness of a small water pipe will not ring or split.

The rule is for steel if one wants a full choke pattern, shoot modified because the pellets do not deform as lead does and the pattern will be denser.
Jerry Harlow is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Harlow For Your Post:
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2020, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.