Frame Size Variants

[Bill Murphy]

I am bringing as many of them as I can find to the top so we can read them again. I have found some comments to be incorrect and some to be correct. One thing is universal. No one who claims to have seen a #8 frame gun has measured the pin separation. In my opinion, all 8 marked hammerless guns are #6 frame and all 8 marked hammer guns are #7 frames.

[Pa SxS]

Attached is the entry of a request for a 2 1/2" frame. The stock book entry for this 2 barrel set can barely be read because the ounces is almost unreadable but best I can read is 8 pounds, 4 ounces for 28" barrels and 8 pounds, 7 ounces for the 32" barrels. The requested weight in the order book is 8 pounds 10 ounces. It's a 12 gauge DH.

If the frame size is requested in the order book it's put in the research letter. I've found a way to search for frame size requests in the archived letters. I'll post the S/N of these guns, the requested frame size, and if there is a stock book for these guns, I'll post the weight. It's been a long day so it will give me something to do tomorrow.

[Pa SxS]

Since doing the research letters starting in 2012, I've found 4 letters I've done which had the frame size requested in the order book. This does not include the gun in the previous response. Out of the 4, only 1 had the corresponding stock book entry due to missing stock books. There may be a few more that I've done letters on but the search didn't bring them up.

Question, if a 2 1/2 frame is equivalent to a 3 frame, what is a 2 3/8 frame size equivalent to and is a 1 1/2 frame size equivalent to a size 2 frame?

1. S/N 73175 DH 12/30 Damascus 2 bbl set requested weight 7-12 requested frame size 2 3/8. 1892 gun

2. S/N 81588 DH 12/28 Damascus requested weight 7-10 to 7-12 requested frame size 2 3/8. 1895 gun. Stock Book weight 7-12.

3. S/N 121143 CH 12/30 Titanic requested weight 7 pounds requested frame size 1 1/2. 1903 gun

4. S/N 86073 CH 12/28 Bernard requested weight 7 1/4 pounds requested frame size 1 1/2. 1897 gun

[Bill Murphy]

I would think an order book entry for "1 1/2" probably refers to an actual #1 1/2 frame.

[Pa SxS]

I was thinking the 1 1/2 frame was introduced later but it looks like the 1 1/2 frame was in existence at the turn of the century.

[Dean Romig]

The Parker frame size designations 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 (simply as sequential numbers) actually have nothing to do with a particular measurement but rather, are frame measurement designation numbers. The frame number designation is a reference to a particular group of common dimensions that are used to attain a well-defined range of gun weight. Consequently, the number 1 1/2 came about because the 1 and 2 were already taken so they had to come up with something in between for a frame size smaller than a 2 frame designation and, in a couple of measurements, larger than the 1 frame designation.

It reminds me of the street address I grew up at.... number 130 and 131 were taken and we were back in between those so my address was 130 1/2.

Similarly, a frame size smaller than the measurements for those of a 1 frame designation was necessary back in the days of the lifters and eventually the 0 frame designation came about after uniformity of measurements was decided upon. (There are a few, a very few, 20 bore lifters with frame measurements and firing pin spacing smaller than those of T/A 20 bore guns bearing the 0 frame designation.) And then came the 00 and 000 frame designations after requirements for such small framed guns became necessary to remain competitive and keep abreast of demand for a lighter 28 bore and then for the .410.

I determined this morning after some tedious measuring and comparing of measurements that my 9+ lb., 10 bore Lifter, No. 5949, which I had believed was a No. 3 frame is actually a No. 2-frame gun.

So as far as my mind and comprehension is concerned I have finally found the 'missing link', the common denominator in my understanding of frame size numbers.


Chuck, I believe, after some measuring, that a 2 3/8 frame is for the No. 2 designation.

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[Bill Murphy]

Dean, what kind of "tedious measurements" were involved in determining that your ten gauge was a #2 frame gun. It's all about the pin separation and that would not require any "tedious" measuring. It is also very clear that what the PB guys described as a 2 3/8 frame was actually a #2 frame. It is all very simple to figure out if you look at the chart on page 527 of The Parker Story. 2 3/8 is a bolster measurement just like the 2 1/2 is a bolster measurement. The explanation of this goes back to the 2013 threads that explain it very clearly.

[Dean Romig]

Sorry Bill, it wasn’t clear to me and when I asked earlier if the measurement was across the face of the bolsters I was answered with “we don’t know if that’s where the measurement was taken.” so along with taking that measurement on several of my 12 and 10 gauge Parkers I also measured from the water table to the center of the firing pin, the width of the beads on the barrel flats, the o.d. Of the individual barrels at the breech, etc. to confirm that the 12 and 10 gauge guns, one of which I thought was on the #3 frame, all conformed to the measurements shown for the #2 frame Parkers.... those are the tedious measurements I took, in addition to the spacing of the firing pins.





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[Bill Murphy]

The pin separation tells the whole story except for the very few exceptions, one of which is in your collection.

[Dean Romig]

Originally Posted by Bill Murphy

The pin separation tells the whole story except for the very few exceptions, one of which is in your collection.

Understood Bill and I agree. I had originally asked the question about the 2 1/4 and 2 1/2 frame sizes that Austin had written about in his articles about gun weights. I know about pin separation quite well but was measuring other dimensions to see if there were any variations from those in The Parker Story. Austin had said there were very tiny, almost insignificant, fractional variations and I simply wanted to know if MY guns would show these tiny variations... and they did.





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