parker collection for sale

[Opening Day]

Originally Posted by ed good

day: i do not know nor care for the purpose of your post. that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here. do it again and i will report you to the board.

Be my guest if you want I will send JD a message myself reporting my post. What you do to guns should be illegal... Oh and my name is Eric just so people don't think you are talking about Bruce.

[ed good]

eric: i do no gun work of any kind. and i do not want to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody else on this forum. this is not the place for that.

[Opening Day]

Originally Posted by ed good

eric: i do no gun work of any kind. and i do not want to get into a pissing contest with you or anybody else on this forum. this is not the place for that.

Then don't post about a Master gunsmith that destroys guns. Give up the BS about low heat (torch) case coloring process you have been called up on it before on other forums and as you say "This is not the place for that"

[Carl Erickson Jr]

I just looked at the firearm in question, and the asking price. I have also seen the over priced guns on Gun Broker. The price of the firearm in question appears to be more than reasonable considering its condition. I personally prefer the worn patina on the receiver of my GH, although I will have the barrels refinished at some time in the future. That is my preference. I also have to remember that Parker did not for the most part make shotguns for collectors (presentation guns excepted) but as tools for hunting or target shooting. If someone does not like the condition of a gun then don't by it.

[AmarilloMike]

Carl if an action that has been case hardened is heated above a certain temperature it can undo the case hardening rendering the action bendable instead of springy. When an action has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did the coloring knew what he was doing. Raimey over on the Doublegun BBS put it well:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/...rue#Post239520

Originally Posted by ed good

day:that kind of nonsense may be tolerated elsewhere, but not here.

ed I don't think you have the authority to speak for this entire BBS. That is I don't think you have the authority to dictate what is and isn't tolerated here. Please feel free to report my post to the BOD along with Eric's. Usually, at this point in our disagreements, you ask me if I have heard from Dave. As I know you have a keen interest in my relationship with Dave I thought I would save you the trouble of inquiring and let you know: Still no word from Dave.

Best,

Mike

[John D.]

Hey guys??.

For a moment - I had to double check who was posting what about whatever... And at my age, I confuse easily.....

Anyway - let's keep the personal "barbs" to a minimum. In fact - let's just leave them at the doorstep, OK? Out of this topic at hand - there are several great threads that could be spawned - so let's stick to those...

My thanks and best to all....

And now - I'm back in "lurk mode"...



John

[Ruff Hunter]

I was reading the thread posted by Mike....must admit that I was completely shocked to see these entries that are pasted below. While I'm as much in favor of free market capitalism as the next man, I do have to wonder why anyone who views vintage doubles as mere widgets for profit would want to be a PGCA member?

jrb: cept win yo heirs gives em to me or sumbody else to sell. then, we gotta fix erm, enhance erm and make erm look purdy, sos to get de maximum bucks out of erm...cause dats watt dey wants...





Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:10 PM)

rhd: i been sellin used guns for fun and profit for about 30 years now. during that time i have learned among other things, what sells and what does not sell. and also, who pays retail and who does not. i do what i do based on what works and does not work. my primary goal is to maximize sale prices in a given environment. i never continue a practice that conflicts with my primary goal.

once a gun reaches my hands, it's about money...


Edited by ed good (08/17/11 03:23 PM

[edgarspencer]

Originally Posted by ed good

justin: the particular gh that you are referring to had it's receiver recolored by ed lander, an old time gunsmith here in nh. old ed has been a full time general gunsmith since he came home from service in ww2, in 1946! imagine having the services of a gunsmith with over 60 years of experience! we in northern new england are lucky to still have him around to work on our guns.

anyway, he uses a low heat chemical process to recolor shotgun receivers. he uses different chemicals to simulate different factory receiver coloring, depending on the brand and age of the gun. for example, i have a late ithaca 20 ga nid, that old ed also recolored the receiver. it is very well done and is close to ithaca factory work of the period.

unlike the high heat bone charcoal process of recoloring shotgun receivers, old ed never heats a shotgun receiver hot enough to reach critical temperature and thus altering the original factory heat treatment of the receiver metal. keeping the heat below critical temperature avoids the well known problems associated with after market re heat treating of shotgun receivers.

Ed, I'm sure that 'old ed' is a good guy to have when you need something fixed, and it's nice to know there are still some old-timers around, but I think he has either not explained his process to you, you've perhaps misunderstood him, or, he's doing little to no good to guns he performs this 'low heat' process on.
Steels, whatever their specific metallurgy, have 2 critical temperatures, logically referred to as the lower and upper critical temperatures. The temperature necessary to carburize, which is what case-hardening is, is above the upper critical temperature (roughly 1650 F for .20C steels) Yes, this is a temp, if in the hands of an inexperienced person, will cause warpage, but it is necessary to to get the contained carbon into solution, and add carbon from the packing material. The skill comes in packing, to avoid deformation, and quenching, or rapid cooling from the normalizing temperature to retain the grain structure. The mechanical properties are not in a usable form; even though the UTS(ultimate tensile strength) is high, yield strength will be so close to UTS, that the other two properties, Elongation, and reduction of area, are nearly non existant. Read "Brittle".
a single, or often necessary, a double temper treatment is necessary for maximum, over all, physical properties. This involves raising the parts again, above the Lower critical temp, but well below the upper critical temps.
Whether 'old ed' is taking his parts above the lower critical temps to get these colors, often from 'quenching in oil' I can't say, but any subsequent heating risks simply annealing to a near dead soft condition. I'm sure I'm not alone in wanting to more than just 'simulate' colors of a proper heat treatment, and have it done properly. There are several good craftsmen doing excellent work. What may differentiate them to many is the resulting colors, but these guys wouldn't risk hard earned reputation simple to 'simulate' proper work.

[ed good]

edger: your post is interesting. what is a typical lower critical temperature for shotgun receivers of pre ww2 vintage?

you are correct, i do not know the particulars of old ed's recoloring process. what i do know is that i have sold dozens guns over the years that have had their receivers re colored by old ed...i have yet to hear of one that failed and i have yet to have a complaint from one of my customers regarding old ed's work. so what ever he is doing, he is not damaging guns and people who own guns that he has worked on like his work or they would not buy the ones i have for sale.

also, rereading your post reminded me of a conversation i had with old ed years ago. you both said essentially the same thing. in addition, as i recall, old ed's problem with the use of the high heat bone charcoal process re shotgun receivers, relates to the inconsistency of shotgun receiver metallurgy and the lack of available information regarding various manufacturers original factory heat treating specifications...so anyone, attempting to duplicate factory heat treating is going by trial and error or are just guessing and hoping for the best outcome.

the trade off here is do you run the risk of damaging the receiver beyond salvage by re heat treating the metal? or do you play it safe and just re color the receiver without changing the original factory heat treating and case hardening? i prefer to play it safe.

[AmarilloMike]

A friend bought a Birmingham single shot hammer gun. It was loose. He sent it to David Yale to be tightened: three times. David finally figured out that the case hardening had been undone and that the action was soft and bending. David didn't charge him anything for the additional work and refunded his previous payments. But my friend has been collecting doubles for thirty years and shot and collected old muzzleloaders before that. David Yale is an experienced gunsmith. It took these two experienced gun men quite awhile to figure out what was going on. It kept going loose. The bending of the softened action was hard to detect.

I repeat; When I see a gun that has been case colored I always wonder if the guy that did it knew what he was doing.

I think the safest thing to do is to not harden or color.


Best,

Mike