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Unread 08-13-2011, 07:22 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Day View Post
.....John, can you delete this whole damn thing. This whole thing is just a mess and there are too many opinions to discuss it. ....
There certainly ARE a lot of opinions - mine included - included a "sidetrack" with Chris and myself - but... But...

BUT - there are a few who have contributed some good opinions and analysis. Drew, Bill, Eric, John Davis, yourself - just to name a few of the several...

If this thread gets "out if hand" I can and will delete it. Between now and then, though..??

Let's let it stand and see what folks have to say - as was the original intent of the original post.

Just from my end of the telescope,

John
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Unread 08-13-2011, 07:41 PM   #82
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I think what we need is some practical testing. Surely there must be a sound Trojan or VH 2 frame 12ga someone has that could in a worst case scenario be sacraficed. Spend the year shooting the hell out of it with steel shot at clays and see what happens. I rather much doubt there is any danger to eyes or limbs. Barrel scoring not likely, maybe bulging in the choke area but how many shots would it take, thousands would be my guess and probably more than most will ever shoot. I suspect the high velocity of off the shelf steel loads combined with the higher pressures will stress old wood but handloaders might be able to tame them down a bit. Back in the early 90's I shot a Miruko Daly o/u 20ga F/M 3" steel 3's and 4's. Guess what, dead ducks, gun is fine. Sherman Bell proved his hunch by testing, the same thing will need to be done here, but the kind of testing we need will mean shooting thousands of rounds, it won't be quick. Nobody should think shooting steel shot in a Parker is OK, but then again maybe with the right loads and chokes it is no big deal. Again nobody should do it without understanding they are putting their gun at risk, but until there has been some extensive testing we would do well to keep a skeptical but open mind.
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Unread 08-13-2011, 09:43 PM   #83
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I think Robin's recent post (attached-below) pretty much encapsulated the whole damn thing, and any further rehashing beyond this point is just cycling in circles... When intelligent people read this thread for reference they can draw their own conclusions and ultimately make their own informed decisions... My vote remains the same, No steel shot in any of my vintage doubles, why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...

Best, CSL
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Originally Posted by Robin Lewis View Post
Bruce, you keep taking shots at FAQ's because we don't address steel shot or other issues that you find dear to your heart. I don't know what an FAQ on this topic will do for you? We have pages upon pages on this forum discussing the topic and a simple FAQ isn't going to resolve anything any better that here; and in my opinion, NOTHING has been resolved here. What would you have me add to the FAQ's?

I went to the Winchester site to see what they had to say and their advice is:
"Winchester steel loads can be fired in shotguns of modern manufacture. It is recommended that steel be fired only in shotguns with no more restriction than an improved modified choke."
So, even they are soft on the issue.... "modern manufacture", whatever that decodes to in a court of law? My opinion is that Parker shotguns are not modern manufacture except in the eyes of the ATF.

I have added all the FAQ's found on this site and have been careful not to post one that could get someone hurt. This topic falls into that realm and "I" will not be posting a FAQ on the use of steel shot in a Parker unless it states something along the line of "never shoot steel shot in a Parker".

If anyone sees an FAQ that is wrong, let me know and I will fix it; if anyone sees a FAQ that could cause someone, anyone, to be harmed, let me know and it is gone, deleted, removed,...; if you think these standards for FAQ's are wrong, let me know and I will have my access to FAQ's removed and someone else can do it. I will always error on the side of safety.

I agree with Eric that to post opinions to a public forum where the uninformed reader takes an opinion as fact can be a big mistake. And the FAQ page may have more authority to the novice than this thread, so care must be taken when adding one to insure it can't lead to an accident of any kind.

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Unread 08-13-2011, 10:00 PM   #84
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I have a go to GH 12ga #2 frame with sawed off 26" bbls. Didn't cost much (relatively) but has turned into a money pit. I blew out the left bbl. a few years ago with a 1&1/2 oz mag load just at the end of the forend (I still have five on my left hand). I sent the gun to Kirk Merrington to sleeve in a pair the same length as the old and choke them "skeet in/skeet out". Thinking back, I wish I had asked him if he could sleeve in a pair of short chambered 10s. Anyway, I asked Kirk if steel would be ok and said "no problem". It has 2&3/4" chambers and I use 1oz #3 Black Clouds for jump shooting waterfowl from my canoe. It's advertised at 1500 fps and I would prefer about 1250, but I don't shoot more than a couple of boxes a year.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 06:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Christopher Lien View Post
why push the envelope?... Ya wanna shoot steel, go by a modern day shotgun equipped to do so...
I don't want to shoot steel through a Parker, I hope never to do so. However I enjoy using them in high volume activities such as crow hunting and thousands of rounds a year on clay pigeons. Non-Toxic shot has been mandated for waterfowling for 20 years, no economical non-tox shot for doubles has come along suggesting it never will. I believe a total lead ban will happen in my lifetime. It will not come all at once, it will be incremental and it has already started. Just this year the non-toxic mandate was extended to shooting various species on a federal depredation permit. A local skeet range just went non-tox. I am keeping an open mind because some sad day I believe I will have no alternative other than steel shot if I want to use a Parker they way I have come to enjoy them. I hope a couple of people take a sturdy "beater" and shoot the hell out of it with steel shot and report what happens.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 09:02 AM   #86
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Gentlemen,

Mandates requiring non-toxic shot are coming. Those requirements may take decades to enact but they are coming. Will our Parkers then be only personal museum pieces?

As wisely stated, if you do not want to risk your barrels do not shoot steel in a Parker. What if a Parker has no barrel constrictions (chokes) or a small constriction such as IC/.010"? Would there be a risk? Let's consider risk... If I really wanted to drive fast my car would reach 130MPH, or so I have read. This would be safe on a race track providing I would wear a helmet and could handle the car at that speed. I would not however drive at 130 MPH on the highway because I do not want to risk my life or endanger others not to mention going to jail… Now, did your wife or girlfriend ever tell you to “Slow Down!”? If so, she did not accept the risk that you had. Undertaking risks is a personal decision which everyone has to make. There is risk in shooting steel shot in a Parker because we have few data points to indicate that it may be a very low risk.

A significant fact from Tom Roster's Shooting Sportsman article stated that he patented a new wad design making steel shot safe for modern guns in 1987. When the market demands someone will develop a wad making it safe to shoot steel shot in vintage guns. Or, do wads capable or protecting old, tightly choked barrels from damage from steel shot presently exist?

After witnessing a full choke (later measured at .030” and 035”) Damascus Parker shoot factory steel shot #4's, and in hearing from well known member of the LC Smith association that he regularly shoots #4 Hevi Shot in his LC Long Range choked at .040", I became very curious. Their barrels did not split but would mine? I know from recovering 12 gauge Hevi Shot wads that each petal is about 1/10" or .100" thick. Hmmm, .100" is more than twice the constriction of the tightest of vintage SxS chokes! NOTE: At the time the subject Parker was firing steel shot the shooter mistakenly thought the gun has less than modified (<.020") chokes.

To date there has been NO statistically significant research conducted concerning shooting steel shot in vintage SxS’s. Why would there be? We all need buy a NEW $1500 autoloader with a camo coating to be able to bag a few Mallards! Allowing for marketing hype let's consider the evidence. What evidence, all we have is hearsay from most, and a few members who witnessed split or bulged barrels from early steel shot loads. Was the cause mud in the muzzles, or could it have been first generation steel shot, perhaps with pellets rusted together, trying to enter into tight chokes with far too thin wad petals? Do you remember when if we even picked up a Damascus barreled gun our fingers would fall off? Maybe the hype wasn't that bad but I believed it and passed up some great Damascus guns 10-20 years ago... Were Grandpa’s blown barrels caused by smokeless power or was it the spider nest in them? Did great-grandpa mistakenly load second generation smokeless power by the black powder volume method rather than by weight in grains? First generation smokeless power was “bulk” and a one for one volume replacement for black powder.


Now is the time to get the facts rather than continue to believe what we have been hearing for years!

Young's Modulus is the engineering principal stating that everything is a spring. Materials strain, i.e. stretch and regain their shape, all the time. Tall bridges move in the wind. So does my wooden house as it endures near tornado winds. Guess what, so do barrels as a shot/wad column moved down it. Slow motion video shows barrel expanding for the shot as does a snake swallowing an animal. ALL barrels strain, be they old composite such as Damascus or fluid steel barrels of low or high carbon content. What we do not have is empirical evidence for at what point they stress, i.e. are permanently deformed! Only research will provide us this data.

For an upcoming research project to be undertaken by a professional gunsmith and myself as time, test subjects, and funding permits, one hypothesis is that Damascus (or low carbon (old, all Parker barrels) fluid steel) barrels can be strained to pass steel shot using “X” thickness of wad which has the hardness of “Y”. Significant factors in this research will be wad thickness and hardness, shot size, barrel thickness and constriction (choke), pressure at the barrel constriction, amount of strain immediately before deformation, velocity, barrel thickness at every half-inch (and point of failure if any) and of course barrel materials. For Damascus barrels that last factor will be tough but we will be able to determine the type of Damascus. Another hypothesis shall be that good quality Damascus is strong as fluid steel, as demonstrated with one test article each, Damascus and fluid steel, by Sherman Bell in his FINDING OUT FOR MYSELF series printed in the Double Gun Journal.

Please note that this research will NOT consider that modern high velocity steel shot ammunition kicks the heck out of shooters and may very probably crack the a 100 year old stock! There are times even I will shoot an autoloader… I do however want to know what I can and cannot shoot in my Parkers. Note: Pressure and recoil are not the same nor are they mutually exclusive. Recoil is determined by the "ejecta" or total weight and velocity of everything to include the weight of the powder traveling down the barrel!

Will these tests be statistically significant? No. The reason is that a sample set of 50 identical test subjects and factors would be required. We would also have to test to the point of deformation/failure for each load/wad/shot size/pressure...

These tests will however provide empirical evidence toward this debate.

For now, please do not shoot steel in a gun you do not want to risk. As for me I’ll shoot Nice Shot and ITX in my Parkers and Elsie’s. I also will not take my best Parkers in my duck boat. Bad things happen to nice guns in duck boats.

Let your common sense and bank account guide you.

Respectfully,
Mark
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Unread 08-14-2011, 04:47 PM   #87
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I think that shooting 12 gauge shells in ten gauge bores would relieve a lot if not all of the distress at the choke. I have been using chamber inserts for years in many different combinations with good results. A full coverage, thick walled 12 gauge wad shot through a .775 to .800 bore should be harmless to any choke. This system should also lower PSI beyond the chamber.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 05:47 PM   #88
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I have a #3 frame 10ga NH of pre 1900 vintage that had been rebuilt several years ago by the DelGrego shop. Along with restocking and refinishing, 32" fluid steel barrells were sleeved in and choked "full & full" with 3&1/2" chambers. I sprung for a 10 round box of 3&1/2" bismuth and decided there had to be a better way and bought a set of 3&1/2" 12ga Guagemates. I had collected a couple of 12ga Black Cloud wads I had shot out of my 12 and found that they would fit smoothly/closely through the chokes of the NH. I tested/patterned some 3" and 3&1/2" steel 12s through it and they were tight and on center at 40 yards. I have not used it enough yet to prove anything.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 06:30 PM   #89
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Bill and Fred,

I had feared that shooting 12 gauge steel in a 10 bore might result in shot slipping through the wad petals and scoring the bores. The nominal bore difference from 12 to 10 is .046". I measured a 10 and 12 gauge wads and found them to be .750" and .705". The shot cup will clearly expand to fill the bore in their respective gauges but an expansion of .070" will require something like a liner... "Lightbulb turns on!" How about one or two layers of Mylar liners? The scoring problem should be mitigated.

I also measured wad petal thickness:

Rem SP-10: .025"
BPI VP-100 10ga: .035"
BPI Multi Metal 10ga: .035" which have a much harder wad petal.
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Unread 08-14-2011, 06:40 PM   #90
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Fred, who sleeved your barrels to fluid steel for you? Are you satisfied with the total amount of money you have in this gun? Can you post some pictures? I have a Lefever sleeved 3 1/2" chamber ten gauge that I would fire 12 gauge steel in.
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