Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums  

Go Back   Parker Gun Collectors Association Forums Parker Forums Parker Hammer Guns

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
Black powder/smokeless?
Unread 06-13-2021, 12:14 PM   #1
Member
Roberto S Siciliano
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 83
Thanks: 53
Thanked 22 Times in 14 Posts

Default Black powder/smokeless?

My pop always fired low brass smokeless in his 1892 GHE hammerless.

Assuming the barrels are still good, is there a limitation with any of the Parkers of this era that restrict them to black powder with smokeless being off limits?
Roberto S Siciliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-13-2021, 01:28 PM   #2
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32,015
Thanks: 36,638
Thanked 34,093 Times in 12,620 Posts

Default

Smokeless is not “off limits” even for the oldest of Parkers. It is the chamber pressure that we need to consider. If the barrels and barrel wall thickness is deemed to be safe you can shoot anything with pressure of probably about 8,000 (or less) psi and muzzle velocities of less than 1,250 or so fps. A lot of us use RST Classic Shotshells. Look them up and check out their website for a very decent listing of all the shotgun anmo they load for our classic shotguns.
But the stock, being 100 years or more old is another consideration entirely. Cracks, splits and chips can and do occur.

“Low brass” really means nothing. It all depends on how the shell is loaded. I’ve seen some pretty stout loads in low brass shells.





.
__________________
"I'm a Setter man.
Not because I think they're better than the other breeds,
but because I'm a romantic - stuck on tradition - and to me, a Setter just "belongs" in the grouse picture."

George King, "That's Ruff", 2010 - a timeless classic.
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dean Romig For Your Post:
Unread 06-13-2021, 03:34 PM   #3
Member
Drew Hause
Forum Associate
 
Drew Hause's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,175
Thanks: 341
Thanked 3,995 Times in 1,308 Posts

Default

Bulk Smokeless ("E.C.", "Schultze", and DuPont) were introduced in the U.S. c. 1892, and were in general use by 1895.

The Parker Brothers 1893 Catalogue stated:
“Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.”

A DuPont Ballistic Table was published in Parker Brothers' “The Small Bore Shotgun” c. 1920 http://parkerguns.org/pages/PDF%20Do...%20Shotgun.pdf
Numbers require adding 10 - 14% for modern piezo transducer pressures.
12 gauge
3 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. = 8,110 psi
3 1/4 Dr. Eq. 1 1/8 oz. = 8,960 psi
3 1/2 Dr. Eq. 1 1/4 oz. = 9,900 psi

More here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview
Drew Hause is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Drew Hause For Your Post:
Visit Drew Hause's homepage!
Unread 06-13-2021, 09:06 PM   #4
Member
Roberto S Siciliano
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 83
Thanks: 53
Thanked 22 Times in 14 Posts

Default

Dean... what is deemed a safe wall thickness?
Thx



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Romig View Post
Smokeless is not “off limits” even for the oldest of Parkers. It is the chamber pressure that we need to consider. If the barrels and barrel wall thickness is deemed to be safe you can shoot anything with pressure of probably about 8,000 (or less) psi and muzzle velocities of less than 1,250 or so fps. A lot of us use RST Classic Shotshells. Look them up and check out their website for a very decent listing of all the shotgun anmo they load for our classic shotguns.
But the stock, being 100 years or more old is another consideration entirely. Cracks, splits and chips can and do occur.

“Low brass” really means nothing. It all depends on how the shell is loaded. I’ve seen some pretty stout loads in low brass shells.





.
Roberto S Siciliano is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-13-2021, 09:43 PM   #5
Member
Bruce Day
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Bruce Day's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 4,995
Thanks: 554
Thanked 15,662 Times in 2,672 Posts

Default

These make a nice light target and small bird load. For pheasant out here on the plains , I go to 1 1/8 oz 3 dram loads.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 4A595D4D-091E-4E47-A90B-226593E47648.jpg (515.3 KB, 1 views)
Bruce Day is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bruce Day For Your Post:
Unread 06-13-2021, 10:41 PM   #6
Member
Dean Romig
PGCA Invincible
Life Member
 
Dean Romig's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 32,015
Thanks: 36,638
Thanked 34,093 Times in 12,620 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberto S Siciliano View Post
Dean... what is deemed a safe wall thickness?
Thx


Most classic SXS folks believe .025" wall thickness to be the minimum for safe shooting.



.
__________________
"I'm a Setter man.
Not because I think they're better than the other breeds,
but because I'm a romantic - stuck on tradition - and to me, a Setter just "belongs" in the grouse picture."

George King, "That's Ruff", 2010 - a timeless classic.
Dean Romig is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Dean Romig For Your Post:
Unread 06-14-2021, 01:45 PM   #7
Member
Drew Hause
Forum Associate
 
Drew Hause's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,175
Thanks: 341
Thanked 3,995 Times in 1,308 Posts

Default

Dean's answer would be the short version and it's a lot more complicated.
Since I've never found engineering drawings or specifications by ANY U.S. maker for wall thickness, the recommendations are based on lots of measurements of presumed to be unaltered barrels.
http://parkerguns.org/pages/faq/BarrelThickness.htm

Never missing an opportunity to rant , sellers commonly list MWT, never bothering, or not disclosing, end-of-chamber and 9" numbers.

Consider this

Drew Hause is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Drew Hause For Your Post:
Visit Drew Hause's homepage!
Unread 06-14-2021, 04:23 PM   #8
Member
Craig Larter
PGCA Lifetime
Member
 
Craig Larter's Avatar

Member Info
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,654
Thanks: 3,171
Thanked 11,057 Times in 1,749 Posts

Default

My 1890 era 12's measure .750 my 10's from the same era measure .780. After 1900 the 12's measure .730 I don't own any 10's past 1898, but my two 10's from that date still measure .780. I have a 1891 CH 12ga on a #1 frame that measures .750 and still has min walls of .036 (.060 at 9" from the muzzle)and the gun weights 7lbs 4oz exactly to the letter so I believe the barrels are untouched. Just my 2 cents.
Craig Larter is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Craig Larter For Your Post:
Unread 06-14-2021, 11:42 PM   #9
Member
Milton C Starr
Forum Associate

Member Info
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,504
Thanks: 476
Thanked 1,006 Times in 465 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Larter View Post
My 1890 era 12's measure .750 my 10's from the same era measure .780. After 1900 the 12's measure .730 I don't own any 10's past 1898, but my two 10's from that date still measure .780. I have a 1891 CH 12ga on a #1 frame that measures .750 and still has min walls of .036 (.060 at 9" from the muzzle)and the gun weights 7lbs 4oz exactly to the letter so I believe the barrels are untouched. Just my 2 cents.
This is one of the best things about buying Parkers from members here who are experienced in these old guns. Alot of the times they have taken the important barrel measurements or have had them checked out and have also hunted with them a good bit.
Milton C Starr is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Milton C Starr For Your Post:
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:47 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 1998 - 2024, Parkerguns.org
Copyright © 2004 Design par Megatekno
- 2008 style update 3.7 avec l'autorisation de son auteur par Stradfred.