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-   -   English Setter Grayson (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23685)

Ted Hicks 03-13-2018 10:07 AM

English Setter Grayson
 
3 Attachment(s)
Grayson has been with us for about 9 weeks now and he's about 17 weeks old. When we brought him home he weighed 14.5 pounds and now he is just a little over 30 pounds. He's coming along nicely and while full of energy and a bit mischievous, he obeys basic commands well. He's good with "Whoa", "Come", "Sit", "Stay", but more work is needed when there are distractions. At times he will linger a bit at the "Come" command, but usually a second command is all that is needed. I'll be working on that some more with him as well.

Most recently I've been working on the "fetch" command and it took him some time to figure out what I was trying to do, but he's got it now. He will chew beef bones so hard you can hear him from upstairs, but he retrieves toys to hand with a pretty soft mouth.

Still having some trouble with "heel", he just wants to be somewhere else. Does anyone have any experience with training their dogs to heel? Feel free to chime in with your thoughts. We just got a suggestion to try a collar called The Gentle Leader. It has a strap for the neck and another that goes over the snout. They are joined under the jaw and that is where you connect your lead. The old farmers' adage for farm animals..."control the head, control the animal" I guess is the theory behind this collar. Not sure if this is the way to go. He is still pretty young so I am not too worried about it, maybe just more time is needed.

Anyway, here are some recent photos:

Kirk Potter 03-13-2018 11:20 AM

Good looking dog! Where’s he from?

Ted Hicks 03-13-2018 11:39 AM

He's a Twombley setter from Coronation Kennels in Northern Vermont. His father is Coronation's Burdock and his mother is Coronation's Grace (Dean and Kathy Romig's setter).

Todd Poer 03-13-2018 12:31 PM

That is a fine looking dog. Has a good shape and sounds like he has a solid disposition.

Trained and been around a good many really top quality dogs either for general hunting and some field trial. Its hard to tell someone how to train their dog since different motives and experience/expectations of handlers/owners, different breeds, and personalities of different dogs, but there are several good techniques to training heel without a lot gizmos if done correctly. As young as that dog looks you have done well to teach him those things thus far with any consistency. I commend you and your teaming for him to learn what he has.

BTW I have never seen a setter heel worth a flip, but most of the ones I knew were mostly exclusive bird dogs that stayed in kennels for most part unless they were out working/hunting. You are correct about him being distracted when he is out walking with you, his nose probably is dragging him one way and you want him to do something else. Be consistent and over time he will probably acquiesce and pick up on it, or he won't. I have seen plenty of bird dogs forced trained to retrieve, but getting them to do it in the field is different and have seen plenty of dogs compartmentalize training.

BTw when training to heel don't just walk in straight lines, just pick one side for him to always heel on, typically off shoulder or opposite of gun side. Work zig zags, box patterns into him and away from him, circles. Keep him in proper cadence and position to your side when he when out of sync tug on leash and say heel and reinforce at what position of heel at your hip you want him at. Work starts and stops and keep in sync. He is suppose to be paying attention to watching you walk. If he pulls ahead, walk towards him and pull him back, and also walk in 90 degree other direction. He will learn when at a heel if is ahead and cannot see you then he is not at heel and in sync with you. Also don't let him lag or trail a little behind, that is not heel either. Keep lessons short but intense, and do no more than a few times a day at first but so it at least once a day and praise him well when he does it.

I would also teach him "high on" or "hunt on", that lets him know when it okay to run amuck and let him be a hunting dog and explore with his nose. You will find this is the easiest command to teach.

John Dallas 03-13-2018 12:36 PM

My experience with teaching "heel" has been with Springers and Labs. Assume it would work with Setters also. I teach my dogs to heel on the side away from the gun. (In my case, that means the dogon the left side) I've never used anything more than a choke collar, and more often simply her regular nylon collar. Begin walking, and force the dog to keep his head even with your knee - never more than several inches fore or aft. Stop and start frequently - the idea is to teach the dog to react to you and your movements. I also force the dog to sit when we stop. As the dog progresses, speed up and slow down - the dog should now be keying off of you. Finally, I start walking in a figure eight about 10 yards long, The forces the dog to adjust his speed depending on whether he is on the inside or outside of the figure 8. While all this is going on, I keep the dog on a lead. You never want to give a command which you can't enforce.

Good luck!

Ted Hicks 03-13-2018 01:04 PM

Thanks for the input so far. Dogs are individuals and I agree that no single approach will work for all. My hopes for him will be as a grouse and woodcock dog with pheasants added in a little later on. He's our family pet too and he associates very well with people.

The distractions are mostly from scent. They have such keen senses of smell, it's hard to imagine what is going on in his head trying to process all that information. It is fun to watch him track scent and zoom in on the source. I'll keep at it a day at a time and I am fine with him developing at his own pace.

Dean Romig 03-13-2018 02:18 PM

He's a handsome boy Ted!
Setters can be stubborn, Lord knows his mother is. Patience and consistency are key.
It's good that he is learning those commands because they are the basis of all his future training. He needs to obey them implicitly in the next several months. If he isn't completely obedient to those basic commands don't move on to more complex training until he is.
Regarding the heel command... Grace, being 3 1/2 has heel down pat but being a stubborn setter, ignores it from time to time especially with distractions of all sorts.
Her heel training consisted of keeping her on a short leash or a leash with a knot 2 feet from her collar. That would be held with my left hand (gun would be in my right if hunting) and in my right hand I would have a 3 foot length of 1/2" PVC which when she would move ahead after being given the heel command I would tap the front of her chest/neck area and command heel again. That gave her a clear picture that if she moved forward there would be an immediate rap to the chest. Certainly not hard enough to hurt her but just enough to get her attention back where it belonged.
I would recommend graduating to an electronic training collar with a variable intensity dial. Grace still has her first one which is ideal for both of us. She gets very excited when I take it out of her bag - it means she's going on an adventure and she'll be running free.

The one I use is a DT Systems H2O 1850. It has 16 levels of intensity in the 'nic' phase and separate button for 'continuous' which I will likely never use unless she chases deer, coyotes, bear or something dangerous to her. It also has a 'on point' horn. Completely waterproof too.





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Reggie Bishop 03-13-2018 02:24 PM

Great looking pup!

Stephen Hodges 03-13-2018 03:39 PM

Handsome boy! To get results almost immediately go to your nearest pet store and purchase a PetSafe Deluxe Easy Walk Harness in the appropriate size for your dog. This harness hooks the lead in the front (chest) of the dog and the lead comes up on the side that you are training your dog to heal by, in most cases off your left side.The Easy Walk Harness gently discourages your dog from pulling on the leash. When your dog pulls, the harness steers your dog to the side and redirects his attention toward you. The harness rests across your dog's chest instead of his throat, so there's no choking or gagging. The Easy Walk Harness is perfect for everything from teaching your dog to heel during daily walks to keeping your dog under control at the vet or dog park.

Run, don't walk to your nearest pet store and buy this harness. No need to put your dog on a "short" lead, tug on them or choke them. Your dog will be walking on a loose leash almost from the first five minutes. It will make your life and your dogs life and training much better i guarantee it. From this relaxed teaching method you can better move on to teach the verbal "heel" command with much less stress on your dog. He will learn much faster as a result of it.
And as far as using an electronic collar in this process, yes, by all means you can use one, but NOT until your dog has mastered the command using only positive reinforcement. Make sure you never use an E collar to TEACH a command, only use it when you are sure that your dog knows the command.

https://www.petsafe.net/support/coll...y-walk-harness

Todd Poer 03-13-2018 04:02 PM

I agree with Dean that it's good to teach these dogs basic obedience and commands, which is actually contrary to what some bird dog traditionalists think. I know a lot of the old time bird hunters and field trial trainers don't even teach sit, stay, or heel. As explained to me they thought it broke the dogs spirit some or maybe put into conflict with listening for you instead of following nose and instincts while in field. Some also think bird dogs resented that and if they got freedom in field they thought dogs would hunt wider. BTW I asked about obedience a long time ago to some about their thoughts and those answers stuck with me. Are they right I don't know, there is healthy balance and compromise that you will find works for you. They will teach whoa and come and that's about it. But these guys also mostly don't have those dogs living under same roof and if you don't have some obedience then its all out war.


Good luck.

Steve, that sounds like an interesting harness to try and sounds like you had some good success with it.


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