Tell Tale Signs of a Re-Stock
 

Can you guys tell me what you look for when trying to determine if a Parker has a replaced stock? Just some general thoughts and guidelines would be helpful.

Thank you.l

Form and quality of work. Plain and simple.
Ideally one should not know that a stock was replaced if it is done right.

What I have noticed is when it looks like forearm and stock come from two pieces of different wood. A lot of times the for-end and stock came from same piece of wood at the factory when manufactured and will have the same finish, look, grain, feel etc. Also the patina and character of wood on one may not match on the two pieces. Checkering is a giveaway as well.

Like Brian said, if done right then its hard to tell since a high quality craftsman will make both pieces look the same.

I was looking at a nice Vulcan Parker 12 ga on 1 1/2 frame that was made in 1905. Gun looked pretty good and locked up tight and gunsmith that owned shop said the barrels were in good shape. Started looking at the stock. The grain of wood, patina, looked a little different. The wood on stock was straighter grained and did not look as worn as the forarm. Started looking at wood to metal finish and it looked good, but at the end of the day it was a restock.

BTw this gun shop also had a bunch of old guns. He had also just bought out a gunshop's old inventory of wood blanks from a Perazzi gun dealer that went out of business. He had a whole bunch of some incredible wood that had grain that looked almost unreal with the dark and swirling grain in the walnut. I would hope that the wood was unfinished enough to be used for something else.

BTw also agree with Dean and Brian. It is not easy and by no means am I an expert, but I am experienced with old wood since just about every piece of furniture in our home is antique family piece. It is hard to explain and just like playing poker there are tells that expert players will notice and its hard to explain. I think it also applies to picking horses on race day. Remember my granddad going to the track. He was not a big gambler but he knew horses. He would slide off and go to paddock and look at the horses and then place his small token bets and was most of the time was always in the money. He liked betting on the long shots to show or place and very rarely ever bet the favorites. He did score once bet a long shot to win. He would never tell us which horses he was betting on. Asked him one time to explain what he was looking for and he would just say the complete package and nothing about what went into the package. Understanding that, took a lifetime of working with horses and watching them move.

It is very difficult to try to describe in a few sentences or paragraphs that which one develops over years and years of examining and comparing known high condition originals with those that pretend to be.

Some can look at a stock or forend and know immediately if it is original or a replacement.

It is a developed skill, not easily described.




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1. Factory fore ends and stocks are seldom matched on low grade guns.

2. Fore ends are often much more worn on guns that have been shot a lot because the hand slides on the fore end.

3. Have you considered checking the stock serial number?

Well, that of course is an obvious thing to check.

However, you cant always pull the guard and check serial numbers on a gun that you may be looking at, either in hand or at a distance.
Besides, any good stock maker that is shooting for a correct job is also going to stamp the serial numbers in the stock in the same fashion, and using similar stamps as the factory did.

Well I’m a novice on these matters and I have to rely on the real experts.

:shock: Is that ethical? :nono: I think making something to the same standards is a goal to strive to but to make it 'appear' original isn't. JMHO

Well, i dont know... lets take a poll.

Interesting points. Always thought on most of the Parker guns that are hand fit they would pull from the same piece of wood or get something pretty close to match. Makes sense in high production if they didn't.

Have looked at a lot of old guns and probably never made direct distinction between wear on fore ends and stock. Most if original and well cared for looked equally worn. Some looked worse than others chips and cracks etc. Again its not sole indicator if you were just trying to see if some woodwork replaced.

Learning something on Parkers. I know there are several SN stamped into metal parts, but they also stamped the stock's. Where would you find the stock stamp in the wood. I am guessing but maybe under the butt plate? Just looking at a gun would not want that liability of removing something unless its stamped somewhere in the open.

Hey I am learning so maybe when I look at other Parkers I know what I am looking at.

Stocks are stamped with the gun's ser# under the trigger guard. See this link: http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthr...t=stock+number

Got it. Thanks. I am not looking there unless I think there are issues if I am considering purchasing another gun that it is giving me pause, then will ask owner to remove it show it. Have never checked on my gun and hopefully won't need to.

Classic guns, antiques, classic cars. I don't know. I do know that if you wreck a newer car say that is no more than 10 years old, then any significant damage is tracked and part of insurance claim is not just repair to the car but diminution in value of car as a result of the damage and now having a damage history. So does this apply to old classic antique cars where people look past damage. Plenty of old cars and just bodies fetch ridiculous prices, it all depends on the demand for that part. Heck I saw a show where it was a piece of rusty metal sitting in a shop that turned out to be a Shelby body that was worth a fortune. It sometimes makes no sense to some and plenty to others. One man's junk is another's precious collectible sought antique.

So does this apply to old guns. The open market will decide and I dare say the vagaries of the market may not be isolated enough to completely ascertain a true difference. Others may disagree. Now if a gun is advertised as mint condition with all parts original and not reconditioned or replaced, then that could be deceptive if some parts were. Buyer Beware. Heck some guns I have seen the actions and barrels looked great but wood was trashed. New stock or greatly conditioned stock would add value but would it be the same to some one that looking only for pristine gun that is rarely fired and action only last seen by craftsman that put gun together nearly 100 years ago. I would dare say there would be a market premium in that case. If someone is trying to pass that off then that does create deception. I guess it just boils down to disclosure.

Personally I once saw a good looking Parker that was supposedly all original but had shown wear and use but it looked great. Price on it was $5,000. There was a slightly used Parker Reproduction right beside it but it had just a little more scroll work and it had a price of $5,000. Go figure. The old original just felt right in the hands. The Repro came up the same but it just did not have same feel. Could be the cast or whatever but it felt good as well. However it did create a dilemma. Same question. Do you like KFC original recipe or extra crispy? Heck I liked them all. If I had the means and intestinal fortitude would have bought all four. Maybe I am not as discriminating as I should be but which gun will hold more value over time is the real question. Looks like nobody is making old or new anymore so...

Quality and condition vs age and workmanship, plus some other variables.

If we are buying a collector grade gun that is all original, we pay a premium. If it's not all original but you think it is and you pay that premium, that's going to be a problem. I know about one such Parker that traded hands many years ago that ended up as a court case. It was purported to be something it wasn't ....

That doesn't surprise me at all Robin. If we only knew about others...





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Gun transactions are typically private affairs and not recorded anywhere for public consumption. Some of these auctions do, but I think its foolish if I am a buyer wanting that information disclosed. Hence market value can be completely subjective; however, fraud is fraud. If you make representations, warrants and guarantees that something is different then what it actually is and you know differently then that is fraudulent activity, no matter what the price is. If a seller has a shadow of doubt, disclose everything you know and tell them "As Is", hence you may or may not get a premium, but your not lying.

Puffery is one thing but flat out lies should/will get you into trouble. Otherwise I have some Rolex watches I need to sell you with a smooth Seiko movement.

For what its worth right or wrong ...I don't usually stamp a serial number unless its requested ....usually its just my initials ....I did have a customer once ask me to restamp mismatched serial no's on a collector grade military rifle with a mismatched bolt ,I refused .... but apparently its quite common in those circles .

Todd, i agree on fraud. And fraud would be defined as a person who has knowledge of something and communicates something different. And then there are the unfortunate folks after the fraud who are left holding the bag. Sometimes multiple parties if something changes hands multiple times.

My intention in mentioning serial numbers in the wood is that yes, it is a pretty good way of determining originality, 99.9% of the time. But... As people always say, never say never. Heck, the gun could have been a factory restock, not aftermarket.

In regards to gunsmiths and restoration work. Not everyone keeps every gun that they restore until the day they die. I personally am surprised at the turnover rate sometimes.
A gun has some restoration work done to it (whatever it may be) then a couple years later it has changed hands a few times and it is seen sitting on a dealers table being advertised as original. Is it the Smiths fault that something got lost in translation along the way?

Brian I agree with your sentiments and I appreciated Chris Dawes comments along with yours. This is not even my thread but I am learning more about specifics of these guns. I was unaware of the stock stamp and that is a neat trick if your doing a deep dive on a gun. I love archaeology and collecting, talking about these guns is a bit like it.

In regard to restoration and needed gunsmith work I think to each his own. I like and appreciate very good work and some people want their old guns to look and work like new and possibly fit them. History of guns and what was done to them and used for creates intrigue, but does it devalue? I don't believe honest gunsmith and restoration work is negative it just needs to be honest and relayed with history of gun. Sometimes history is forgotten. I don't think that should translate back to an honest tradesman as doing something wrong unless they are reping and warranting something that is not, but even then it has caveats.

There is a fine line between cons and forgeries and restoration work. What if the Parker Reproductions came out and said these were all Factory Original Parkers? Some would take umbrage, some could care less. What if you sent them a gun made in 1907 and asked them to restore? Nothing wrong with it as long as it possibly is communicated with history of gun.

I really agree with your sentiment about factory work. Say there was an old Parker that someone broke the stock on back in the 40's. What if that person knew someone that was still around that worked in the factory and made stocks and replaced it to make it look like it did 30 years earlier. That could be like asking Rembrandt to restore a painting that someone doused with wine. Did those events change the value of the painting or a gun, to me not, to others it is tainted. I think same standard applies with current work done by skilled tradesmen.

Ultimately every one that views these guns as investments are concerned with market forces. A market transaction is defined as both a knowledgeable buyer and seller acting prudently and in their own perspective best interest. If someone is trying dupe or present something false that they know differently then that is fraud, but still the other party should be doing their due diligence. P.T Barnum always gets credit for saying there is a sucker born every minute, except he never really said it. A banker named David Hannum supposedly coined that phrase with regard to one of Barnum's side show hoaxes, it just stuck with Barnum. Hannum probably even the got the phrase from someone else.

Years ago I knew someone that invested in one of those Fisher treasure scams. He sent Fisher a few thousand bucks thinking he was going to get rich when Fisher finds his next Spainish ship wreck. Part of the con was that he received a package with a few silver coins after about a year that were supposedly discovered at the wreck sight they were funding. Said they needed more money to get a bigger boat to get the treasure. He was so proud of the coins and was about to send more money and he was showing me the coins. Said he was going to take some of the silver coins and melt them to make a chain and then have one coin attached to the chain to make it a good luck piece. Luckily me and a few others stopped him from ruining the coins and sending more money.

I appreciate all of the interesting discussion. I guess for those of us who are late into the game we aren't going to get all the years experience examining nice original guns to acquire the skill needed to ID some things. But it is still fun learning and discussing. I have been able to obtain 3 nice original guns so I have something to examine and fondle. :)

Reggie,

Don't sell yourself too short. I'll bet you are way ahead of the game. Just keep your head on a swivel and look for reasonableness in the gun and the info. The story will reveal itself and that is part of the fun and adventure of these old guns, at least it is for me.

Family has an old black powder hammer rifle that hung over my grandfathers fireplace for 40 years. He collected and restored antiques but knew little about guns. My dad liked old guns and turns out the gun over the fireplace was made by a guy named Ogden out of New York. Dad likes shotguns and inherited gun and just put it back in the gun safe. Started doing some research the other day 20 years after grandfather died and found an identical gun that is housed in the Jim Bridger museum that was gun given to him and it was made by Ogden. Only difference is our gun is a 50 caliber. Remember as a kid wondering about that gun and what it used for and who owned it, what was its story. Most guns storied pasts are as fleeting as burning gun powder. Some get immortalized like Bo Whoop. http://museumofthemountainman.com/jim-bridgers-rifle/

Fun stuff. Enjoy the journey.

I had an old peeling python reblued one time and intentionally asked the smith to Blue the hammer in hopes of avoiding someone down the road trying to pass it off as original.

However, I have had conversations with gentlemen(not certain that truly applies) who spend large amounts of money restoring a firearm to like new condition. In their opinion on the matter, if they do a restoration the point is to have the gun returned to original like new condition including restoring original markings or serial numbers. In their opinion with the level of work and money put into the gun, they consider it to be restored to stock new condition. When I asked them if it was ethical to present a restored gun as a like new gun, their basic response was if you cannot tell a gun is restored in their opinion it is original.

I don't personally agree with their logic, and have never been willing to trade guns with them, for both originality concerns and pricing issues, but that is what they firmly believe.

Yes you will, but it doesn't come overnight. And many of the old-timers who can recognize these nuances have paid their dues in mistakes made during the learning curve.





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I apologize Reggie for my post derailing the focus of this thread. The would like to ask the current direction of comment made here should be directed to a new thread, if anyone so desires to start one up.

It's good to get views on restored Parker's discussed but it's not helping to answer the question on what to look for that may determine wood replacement. On that topic, my only red flag (assuming high quality workmanship) would be if the wood quality or type doesn't match what I would expect to find on a particular grade. Many times replacement wood exceeds the quality of the grade because it's a replacement (repair or upgrade) and not a 'restoration'.

To Robin's post I would add, If you have a particular gun in mind and don't mind a wide variety of opinions, why not post up some pictures?





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I will try to do that. The gun in question is a 20 gauge VHE that has been with the last owner about 14 years and he has a letter from the family that he got the gun from documenting that it was originally bought in NC and was in their family since new until the 2nd owner bought it. They stated that the gun was stored away in a closet for years and years after the original buyer passed away in a car accident. The PGCA letter documents the 26" barrel length and the capped pistol grip stock. The LOP agrees with the letter. The case colors are gone and the barrel blue is thinning in spots. It obviously has been well cared for but enjoyed.

What is unusual is the forearm and buttstock are in very good condition. Thea forearm looks correct and has no handling marks and very little wear. The buttstock has no scratches or handling marks and the checkering is strong. The buttplate has the spur and it does show some wear at the heel that would come from shouldering the gun. I just don't see how the wood could be so nice and the case colors gone and blue thinning. Unless maybe it was used 100% on skeet or something. I guess the checkering is why I am doubting its original. There is no wear on the checkering. The original Parkers I own also have strong checkering but they also have most of their blue and a lot of color too. Bores are bright and shiny.

I will remove the trigger guard once I get a chance.

OK I lifted the trigger guard and found an "O" indicating the grade. In a smaller size stamp is a serial number, but it has degraded to the point I can't be sure what the numbers are. I am pretty sure the first digit is correct and maybe a couple others but its not clearly determinable. The serial number is stamped with very small numbers. Would this be typical for an early 20s gun? Pics coming tomorrow.

UPDATE- pulled out the big magnifying glass. The numbers are correct! So as far as I am concerned the stock is original. This is fun stuff!

That's cool. Thanks for sharing. I think its even better that you know something about its history. Hope everything else your concerned with checks out and you make can make a deal. Case coloring can wear off pretty easily with even moderate use so told and I think UVs from sunlight can work on it. Maybe for years it was stored in the open gun case exposed to sunlight by original user. He might of really babied the wood as well.

https://i.imgur.com/yKAVyPa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/F2psssZ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/kdqdcXA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pjh0fUc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pXoV9XA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lVBdLdS.jpg

Hi Reggie, thanks for those nice pictures.

Your stock looks to be original but has been completely refinished with recut checkering. Nicely done too. But the mullered border must have been beyond the capabilities of the person who did the work. The butt plate does show a bit of wear, as you say, from shouldering.





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Yeah Dean. Refinished, oversanded some against the metal and checkering not completely correct. But wood itself is original.

Thanks guys for all the input. It is a good solid hunting Parker and the only one I have with 26" barrels and the ejectors make it extra nice for me.

Sounds like a great upland gun!





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I agree. 26 inch barrels are great for hunting tight cover and brush. I would almost say essential but that would be from my view and probably a contested debate for others in various situations. I have two other sxs that are not Parkers that I use to bang around when hunting in mean cover or if going to a place where I am not worried about getting guns knocked around a bit. Both have 26 inch barrels in 20 and 28 gauge. They have done very well for me in tight cover and my firm conviction on using a 26 inch barrel for close quarter hunting has paid off way too many times.

I like the 28 gauge a lot and it does well on these put out bird hunts. Used it at one of those big plantations in Georgia and was hunting end of season on a corporate boondoggle trip. Thought would just be hunting quail or would have brought the 20. Seems throughout the season they also put out a lot of pheasant with some that get away, turned out to be a lot. We followed a dog point and got into a 5 to 7 acre tangled plot of scrub oak, thorny locust, sprouting pine, sagebrush, honey suckle and thickets of briars that would tear your clothes off trying to get through.

It looked like a grouse or woodcock fortress that I had been in once before in Minnesota, except this brush bites with all those thorns and with a cover hitting about 10 to 15 feet tall that was tight and had narrow shooting lanes. Perfect for a 26 inch barreled upland gun. We stumbled in a few yards and discovered that thicket was full off pheasant and quail that had been running wild for a couple of months. The guides swore they had no idea those birds were there since it was sort of off the beaten track of areas they worked. They had suspected some quail might be there and just left it alone as part of their quail restoration project. They said there was no way they lost track of this many pheasant and that they had to of made their way from a nearby plantation a few miles away that did continental pheasant hunts. Radios started going off like crazy and all I heard was "get here", "wait for me", and better bring extra shells".

Me and about 3 other guides had a blast and we shot 95 of those birds on one pass. We decided to not to shoot at any quail since some may make it in the wild and hence just focused on pheasants. Birds were coming up about every 20 to 30 seconds and were flying hard and strong when flushed. There were 6 dogs working and when we made it to other side of plot we still left probably half of the pheasant running around. We all looked like we just went ten rounds with a covey of wildcats and were scratched up, bloody and sweaty messes. Dogs were spent. My fowling piece had a few new character marks. I only brought two boxes of 28 shells and ran out shells and had to be somewhere else plus daylight was fading. Only time a guide has said to me, "do you mind driving yourself back to lodge" and please don't tell anyone. I said gladly and tried to tip him but he almost wanted to fight me over it. I left money in is gun case anyway.

Those guides drop their birds, got some more shells and dogs and some other guides joined them on other side as I left and they all turned right back around and hit em again. Sounded like a war except everyone was giggling saying "can you believe this shstuff". I actually felt guilty and glad I ran out of shells. Those guides work hard all year and season and this was an unexpected bonus for them since they are hunters that most of the time don't get to shoot. They made up for it on that day. They were pretty certain that none of the pheasant would make it on their own so thought was get em when you can and maybe eliminate the temptation to predators and spare the quail. They had a job to do and those pheasant needed a mercy killing. I think term is euthanasia.

I also saw the plantation manager and owner the next morning as I was leaving. They had some shooting garb on. I asked was season over, they said in unison with a grin, "not yet". Pretty sure I know where they were going.

I was actually amazed at how well that 28 gauge did on pheasant with 7.5 shot. Since most shots were no more than 15 to 20 yards it was a perfect scenario. I shot a few down at about 30 but they were not clean kills and I figured I could be selective since did not have many shells. Done a good bit of bird hunting and that was craziest epic day of hunting in thick cover that I have ever had. I think it was one of those days where everything just comes together. My guess was by that same time next year that thicket would have been damn near impenetrable almost from the briars alone.