Found VH 20 ga 32" BB I need help
 

I recently found a VH 20 gauge with 32 inch barrels on a # 1 frame. It is a 3" magnum. The number is 131424. It has a replaced stock with a Kickeze pad, but original splinter forend. Should I restore it to a VH or upgrade it to an AH or AAH or A1 Special? 32 inch barrels! Please -- looking for suggestions and names of good restorers Thanks Tony

Just my opinion but I am not much for upgraded guns. If the gun is sound lightly clean it up and shoot the hell out of it. A 32" 20 gauge is a wonderful gun.

Get a letter on the gun and if all is correct other than the replaced butt stock, restore to original without making it look overdone. Have a reputable gun restorer do it. All the upgrading will not add profitable value to this gun. It is very desirable in the original form. IMHO Jim

I agree with Mr. DiSpano. But beware of the word/concept of "restore." Restore to what should be the question. Making this gun look "factory new" may not be the best course. Having it returned to a "well kept" appearance may be better. But an "upgrade" will certainly destroy any heritage the gun may have.

Thus, it will be wise to choose the "restorer" with utmost care and thought. I'd personally write off any firm whose name begins with T.

Best, Kensal

Do not upgrade the gun!
A 20g. with 32" barrels is a rare enough find and in a magnum too! That is a rare and valuable gun. Worth much more, proportionately speaking, than an upgrade would be after the upgrade work is done to it.
To what extent to restore it all depends on the condition. You should post some pics so we can see.
If the replacement buttstock is obviously not original in either form or quality, that should be replaced to be correct.

A replacement buttstock could be finish matched to the forend and the patina of the rest of the gun so that it does not stick out like a sore thumb on the gun. Since sometimes one nice new part of a gun can lead to feeling the need to do more work on other parts.

The extent of original finish on your metal will be your determining factor on how far you want to go with any restoration work.

I am sure that gun has seen many duck blinds over the years.

Anthony,
Tread lightly before you do anything to this wonderful gun. Some pictures of it would help us better judge its condition. We just love pictures here. How do you know the stock has been replaced?

A PGCA letter should be your first move on a gun like this.

Thanks for all the responses - I'll get some pictures up tomorrow - Tony

I took a few images for your review

Receiver

water table - barrel and lug - bottom of barrels - top of barrels

"missing" rib markings - close up of barrel - stock checkering - stock

grip cap - stock and cap - forend - bottom of gun

Quick two cents. Re-blacken the barrels, retime the screws, recut the checkering on the forearm. Don't believe buttstock is original and don't believe that is an original grip cap or period correct pad (or fitted that well either). What is the LOP now? I think restore it to what it should be. I don't believe I'd recase color it as it has some good color already. PS. Reserve the right come back and edit my answer as soon as I stare at your pics a pit more.

Double PS. Man, that's an awesome sporting clays gun on the vintage circuit for sure.

Who knows what is going on with the couple spots of rib matting that is missing. Most likely some damage to the rip that was polished out and removed the matting. Are those spots low? They would have to be to have completely remove the matting.

Looks to me like the reciever was blued. maybe it is just the lighting.

The buttstock checkering pattern is not correct and poorly done. The checkering itself is ok looking, but the pattern is very bad. And the grip cap is not correct. As for the buttstock itself... hard to say. Have you checked for a Serial number under the guard? There is not much about the form of the buttstock that screams that it is a replacement, but the overall finish of it compared to the forend points to at least a refinish if not a replacement.

As for what to do to the gun, it is compeltely up to you. It would be a very good candidate for a complete restoration since there is a lot of little issues with it. In that senario, the rib matting is the only thing that would strike me as being the difficult thing to repair correctly.

I do agree that recutting the checkering and adding some finish to the forend is a good idea. Maybe also redo the checkring on the wrist to be correct would be a good idea (if there is enough to work with there). Or maybe even a replacement of the buttstock to one that that is 100% correct.

Other than that, I think you ahve a good shooter there.

Or it could just be a shooter.

There is nothing about this gun that cannot be put right. Even with the buttstock, which may be the original (albeit bodgered). But the cost of it all done by a good 'smith might be as much as the gun's worth at the moment.

That said, the value in this gun is the barrels. They are VERY rare. In that regard, this gun is a solid candidate for the typical Parker "restoration." It is a piece of Parker history that has some real value and should be preserved.

Best, Kensal

A quick summary - The rib "missing matting" 3 areas are not lower than the remainder of the barrel. The entire rib at that point is lower than the barrel, so it is probably not rubbed of. Maybe it was missed originally. The barrels do ring like church bells. The inside bores are fine. IM and M chokes. The grip cap is not original. I'll remove the stock to check for matching numbers. Now, I'm not sure if it is a replacement or a bad "refinish" job. And, of course the screws all need to be timed.

Any thoughts - who to send the barrels to for rust blue?

It would be a great clays gun! It just needs some TLC.
More opinions welcomed

Two additions:
1 - I removed the butt stock and it is not the original
2 - the mystery of the missing wavy lines - according to "The Parker Story" volume II
It seems this was hand rolled on to the rib. There were a few 'mistakes' when this was done. I believe that it was 'missed'. After all, this is a 32" bb, and the blank metal is exactly that - blank - the waves were never applied.

Mr. Cibelli,

That is a very nice gun with loads of potential.

Make of her what you want.
IMO: i would consider having the barrels re blued (rust blued as they appear to have been hot blued at one time byt eh presence of the lower rib weep holes), Restock her or have the existing stock modified to fit your dimensions ( you are not affecting her value since it is not an orginal stock/ so dont let that deter you). I would not have her re cased as I do not believe in this. I have seen several guns warped by the process. The original hardening is still there it is just the coloring is gone.

Enjoy the gun. The long barreled subgauge Parkers are a real treat. Hope to hear you get her out and bust some clays with her.

Give us your where abouts and I am sure myself or some of the other guys could stear you towards someone to reblue the barrels/ do some stock work for you.

How could a gun get out the door at Parker with missing rib matting? That sounds strange to me. I agree with the others: blue the bbls, recut the forearm checkering, put the correct grip cap on. If I had deep pockets I might restock it with a correct butt plate as well. That is a nice gun.

Whoever you send the barrels to should be instructed to properly plug those four holes in the bottom rib that were drilled the last time the barrels were reblued.

Incidentally, Parker Bros. didn't make any "magnum 3 inch." twenty gauge guns in the 1905 era so please don't attempt to shoot 3" magnum ammunition in that gun.

That gun would have never left the factory with the rib matting in that condition. A good engraver can easily reengrave the wavy line matting. I have seen this done a few times.And the refinish the barrels. I agree with others have the stock made correct and put the correct grip cap on the gun.

According to "The Parker Story" occasionally a gun left with "chatter" - when the rib is double stamped. So, Iguess it is possible to "miss" a stamp.

Sir,

I would not sweat the rib. IMO that does not take anything away from that gun. If she were mine I would not waste my time or money trying to have that minor issue fixed.

She is a dandy. And IMO a VH is a lot better gun than a VHE. Shoot her up.

Iam sorry for giving my opinion only. If the rib does really bother you. Contact Simmons or an engraver. Charles Lee in California may be able to do something for you. I would expect this to get pricey though.

I am in Florida (central) if you know a good rust blue barrel guy - thanks

Mr. Cibelli, For the sake of clarity please read pages 426-427 of "The Parker Story" regarding the rib matting machine. This was a fully automated machine developed by Mr. Hayes. I believe the reference to "Chatter" had to do with the roll mark of the makers name on the rib. I have a D damascus gun with this occurence.Sorry for the lousy scan.

Anthony:
If it were me, I'd send the barrels to Brad Bachelder for blacking. What's a few dollars for UPS? If the buttstock is not original, you might cast around a while to see if you can find an original replacement. It's a No. 1 frame so there is a fair chance one might turn up. Try our "for sale" forum or ebay. A complete restock can cost you a bundle.

Your forearm needs more than rechequering. A good stocker should be able to bring it back along with a recut of the lines. Again... Bachelder if you are not a pro yourself.

As for the frame, try cleaning it up with a worn dishwash "scrubbie" and some Hoppes for lubricant. Go carefully and try to leave colour in the engraving. It should look very nice.

Best, Kensal

PS: I agree that the rib matt spots might well have been a factory botch.... mostly due to the added rib length/roll die capability.

I just don't believe that rib would have ever left the factory in that condition. I've seen entries in the stock books where the supervisor wasn't satisfied with the work and sent it back for rework.

I'd get it to a good barrel man and get his opinion as to how it might have happened but regardless, it is what it is now. I would probably get the matting re engraved and get it re blued properly.

Nice gun!

thanks for all the imput

as far as the "chatter" - I was only trying to point out that not all Parker guns left the factory "perfect"
I agree with - Kensal PS: I agree that the rib matt spots might well have been a factory botch.... mostly due to the added rib length/roll die capability.

2 questions - is the "scrubbie" metal?
- where is Brad Bachelder?
thanks Tony

Tony
You apparently missed Dave Suponski's response along with the picture of the Parker Bros. rib matting machine. The 'wavy line' rib matting was not roll-die applied and therefor was not subject to the "chatter" or double stamp caused by it.
Dean

Anthony:
It's a "scotch brite" pad... the kitchen sink type is just a tad too rough... which is why I recco a worn one. But you might find "softer" versions locally.

Bachelder is in Grand Rapids MI... just put the name into the google box for his site.

Best, Kensal

I stand corrected on the rib matting... most shops would have rolled it on. But not Parker!

Though the rib matting MAY have been a factory botch, it would be a good idea to at least look into getting it fixed. The cost may be reasonable and worth the expense. It may be money well spent considering that some perspective purchasers might be chased away from paying top dollar for such a defect.

Anthony, you've really got something to look forward to once you get her in the field. Sorry for my tangent here but I wanted to comment on the 20 gauge, 3-inch performance.

Last spring I found a straight grip VH Parker at show up north. Gun is a 12 gauge, 2 frame, 32-incher, and it came with a spare 2 frame, 32-inch 20 gauge barrel and its forend. The 20 gauge barrel is serial numbered to another gun, and checks out as a factory 3-inch. I pulled out all the stops and had the spare barrel and forend fitted, and ended up with a two-barrel set in time for the first waterfowling gig last fall.

The "Super 20" Parker took five Canadas with ease on the shores of the St Lawrence river in northern NY. It was a test of sorts..... my buds let me shoot first at the tallest, farthest bird that was in range. On both days we had one decoy at ~50 yards to mark the farthest bird I'd take. 5 birds dropped with 8 shots, using BCC 20 gauge/3 inch shells with 1-1/16 oz of #4 bismuth. This 20 gauge barrel is choked F & F. Overall I'd say the 20 gauge didn't lose much against my buds' Benelli SBE, a Super-X 3, and an 870 3 inch pump gun - all using steel shot. Nope she isn't a 20 gauge HE Grade Super Fox, but is probably the closest I'll get to one at a reasonable cost. From this admittedly limited test I'd say those purists who bought those 20 gauge long-barreled, tightly choked Parkers back in the day, knew what they could do if pointed right.

http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_8961-1.jpg

Anthony:
While I hesitate adding to this already over-long thread, I highly recommend that you not use 3-inch 20-bore cartridges in the gun once it's restored. Even high-velocity 2 3/4" cartridges are not a good choice. Why? Because you gain very little in performance and put a colossal strain on the gun's stock - not to mention your shoulder.

Virtually every American walnut stocked Parker I've ever taken to bits has a cracked stock head. Mostly from aged wood combined with the use of overloaded ammunition.

But it's your gun. You are certainly free to do what you like.

Best, Kensal

Dean - did not miss it - only pointing out that not all Parkers left the factory perfect regardless of the process - thanks!

i have killed about 8 to 10 with my 20's with 7/8 th oz of bismuth 6's reloads. not my 1st pic for goose but works in a pinch:whistle: oh i do love my 30 in VHE 20 :bowdown:

Frank - thank you for the VH story! I love it. And your Parker is beautiful. Who did the work? I am leaning toward having the entire gun restored.

Kensal - I'll probably never use 3" shells. The gun will be more for sporting clays.

B. Dudley - undecided about the "botched" rib. The VH has a certain history (either way)

Tony

Tony, the 20 gauge barrel & forend fitting was done by Dewey Vicknair, well known to most of the Parker brethren.

Just a few words on shooting 20 gauge/3-inch BCC factory shells in this gun ...... remembering our physics classes, the recoil transferred to the head of the stock is based on only three parameters: mass of the ejecta (shot, wads and powder gasses), velocity of the ejecta, and mass of the gun. Pressure of the load is not a consideration.

Now let's figure...... The 20 gauge BCC ejecta is lighter than many 12 gauge loads the VH was designed for. And let's assume the 20 gauge velocity is about the same as the 12 gauge with comparable hunting loads. And we'll keep in mind the gun is significantly heavier with the 20 gauge/3-inch barrel mounted, than is is with the factory 12 gauge barrel. Ergo, less recoil is transferred to the head of the stock when shooting the 3-inch BCC 1-1/16 oz loads than when shooting something like 1-1/8 ounce 12 gauge hunting loads. Way less than when shooting 1-1/4 ounce 12 gauge hunting loads.

This VH has been out on the sporting course many times. Those 32-inch 20 gauge barrels point like a magic wand
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...97/post5-8.jpg

Plenty of mass in either set of barrels
http://i1044.photobucket.com/albums/...7/post2-11.jpg

that is one incredable 20 ga. very nice. thanks for sharing with us.

Great photos Frank. You know you are preaching to the choir here touting the beauty of long barreled smallbores. I just wish I could afford a 32" 20 Fox let alone find one. I did find a real clean 20ga., 28" Sterly with killer dimensions at the UP shoot last week. Probably paid a little too much for it but what the hell. She's got great triggers and IM/F chokes. The search goes on.