Ballistite Dense Smokeless Powder
 

Are we believing that Ballistite Dense Smokeless Powder is really lower pressure than black powder?

Attachment 64772

Shotshell Box Insert for sale in current Ward's Auction.

I think 'Drams Equivalent' may make it so.





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From “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” by Wallace H Coxe; E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, a DuPont Oval Pamphlet, p.20.
Charge was 3 Dr. Eq. and 1 1/4 oz.
Pressure is expressed in Long Tons. sq/ inch but it appears that PSI X 2240 was used to calculate those values (and maybe + 10-14% for modern transducer numbers)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../410772139.jpg

Ballistite maximum pressure at 1” was 4.9 Long Tons = 10,976 psi
Schultze at 1 3/4” was 4.5 Long Tons = 10,080 psi
DuPont Bulk at 1 2/3” was 4.1 Long Tons = 9,184 psi
FFFg at 1 1/2” was 3.8 Long Tons = 8,512 psi
DuPont Oval at 2” was 3.5 Long Tons = 7,840 psi

Pressure Comparisons:
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (1200 fps) of DuPont FFFg (82 grains) is about 5000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4 T.S. (82 grains; somewhat similar but not equivalent to medium grain FFg) was about 6500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless (DuPont, "E.C." or "Schultze") was 6000 - 8000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless (Ballistite or "Infallible") was 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

Not sure how that "Absence Of Recoil - High Velocity" voodoo works either ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413156056.jpg

Sporting Life
Sept. 1, 1900
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL3524013.pdf
J. H. Lau & Co., 75 Chambers street, New York importers and jobbers of firearms, ammunition, sporting and fencing goods, are sole agents for Nobel's sporting Ballistite smokeless shotgun powder. This powder has been very extensively introduced in this country and has gained for itself a place among the leaders. It is a smokeless, waterproof powder, combining uniformity and accuracy, high velocity, small bursting strain, no residue, no leading of the barrels and perfect safety, owing to its being unaffected by climatic changes. Its quickness of combustion recommends it to all users of smokeless powder. The recoil is slight even with the maximum charges.

Nov. 15, 1902
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4009014.pdf
J. H. Lau & Co., 75 Chambers street, New York, importers and dealers in firearms, ammunition and fencing goods, are sole agents for Nobel's Ballistite powder. They claim for the sporting Ballistite powder quietness, high velocity and penetration, smokeless and clean.

Feb. 18, 1905
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4423016.pdf
The Ballistite powder still maintains a popularity among trap shooters owing to
its high velocity, quickness and low bursting strain. "Shooting Facts" will fully describe Ballistite powder and give much important and interesting matter to shooters. J. H. Lau & Co., 75 Chambers street, New York, will supply this book free of cost.

Sept. 22, 1900 Sporting Life "Has Practically No Recoil"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413976501.jpg

Jan. 5, 1901

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413976493.jpg

Testimonial from the London Field
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL3604013.pdf

Still at it Sept. 20, 1913 after acquired by DuPont - "High Velocity Light Recoil"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413976502.jpg

Ballistite claimed to have been banned by the Interstate Association in 1906
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads...banned.540921/

Dec. 12, 1903 Sporting Life "pressures lower than black powder"
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4213018.pdf

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../413977146.jpg

1903 Western Field also mentions the Reble' Gun
https://books.google.com/books?id=dB...g=RA3-PR45&lpg

Can't find Reble' as a French nor Belgian maker

Another mention of J.H. Lau & The Reble' Gun, but still no idea as to the maker
https://books.google.com/books?id=WJ...AJ&pg=PA52&lpg

Not much help, but clearly an import
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4209018.pdf
J. H. Lau Co., 75 Chambers street, New York, have just received a fresh supply of new Reble' guns. They are pronounced
the finest that have ever come to this country; handsome in appearance, finely balanced and finished in the most perfect
manner. The Reble' gun is not a mere shooting machine, but a strong, serviceable gun of the highest quality.

Used by Sim Glover in competition
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4104022.pdf
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4115022.pdf
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL4202031.pdf

No mention of Reble' in Sporting Life after 1904

Drew you are a walking library!!!
Thanks for the information.
Jim

You are most welcome Jim, but I quickly learned at the SOM that if you are not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, you better be the most organized ;)

More powder marketing voodoo - "E.C." Bulk Smokeless

Sept. 20, 1913 Sporting Life
High Velocity - Light Recoil - Even Patterns (not sure how that works :rolleyes: )

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../414001350.jpg

Well then, at least we know you have all your light bulbs in order. :) You are a walking library. Thank you.

E. C. Schultz celluloid type of gunpuwder ?






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Likely more than anyone would like to know about early Bulk and Dense Smokeless Shotgun powders here not quite 1/2 way down
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...UOZEFU/preview

That is a lot of info. Particularly like page 21 referring to how Parker tested barrel material in their quality control process.

January 11, 1902 Sporting Life
"Highest velocity, closest and most even patterns, lowest barrel pressure with the lightest recoil..." WOW!

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../414003996.jpg

April 5, 1902 Sporting Life
"...most even patterns and no stringing of shot."

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../414004005.jpg

I have an Italian 16 ga. hammer gun I believe was made between the wars that was proofed with Walsrode smokeless powder, and so stamped on the barrel flats and action flats. It then goes on to state on the top of the barrels that they were "proved in the manner of white powder" (my italian friend's best translation). An interesting mix of english and italian language on the gun. I'm not sure if Walsrode was english or german in origin.

Wolffe & Co. in Walsrode, Prussia had a London agent, George Beutner, in 1892 then established The Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. in 1894. Walsrode Gray 33 grain = 3 Dram; Green 30 gr. = 3 Dram.
In 1895, agents included Von Lengerke & Detmold, N.Y., Von Lengerke & Antoine, Chicago, M.F. Kennedy & Bros., St. Paul, and Clabrough, Golcher & Co.

In 1895, President Grover Cleveland order 1,800 ‘ducking’ shotshells from William Wagner, Washington D.C. and specified they be loaded with Walsrode
3rd column under Trade Notes
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrar.../SL2501014.pdf

Dr. George N. Thomas organized the Walsrode Gun Club in Trenton, N.J. in 1895; later the Trenton Shooting Association
https://books.google.com/books?id=b5...J&pg=PA272&lpg

1902 "New Green Walsrode"

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../412675744.jpg

In 1903, Schoverling, Daly & Gales advertised as the “Sole U.S. Agents” and listed Walsrode as “The Original Dense Smokeless”

1915 Forest & Stream

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../410494175.jpg

Laflin & Rand may have started the Smokeless Powder Marketing Hyperbole; Oct. 22, 1898 "greatest velocity and uniformity with lowest bursting strain" No mention of recoil ;)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../414012487.jpg

Walsrode Dense compared to Infallible and Ballistite

http://pic20.picturetrail.com:80/VOL.../402530012.jpg