"progressive" powders and tight patterns
 

from my readings, one of the factors in the early twentieth century search for a range shotgun and a load for it (such as the original Super-X) was the development of "progressive" powders - more of a ever increasing push of building velocity rather than an sudden explosion and set back of the charge.

the thought as I understand it (and believe it) was that a gentler start and then building of the load's velocity as it moved down the barrel damaged fewer pellets and resulted in a tighter down range pattern.

if you look at modern power manufacturer's descriptions you see fast burning and slow burning powders - or no reference at all to burn rate and nothing about "progressive"

my guess would be -for a good as any of my guesses are - is that "slow burning" is the modern equivalent of "progressive" in marketing speak

now - the reason for the thought-

this year I will be feeding a battery of duck guns - a Super Fox, a 3 frame Parker and a Smith Longrange - all 12's of course with heavy barrels

I think is would be interesting to try to replicate the performance of the waterfowl loads like the original Super-x as near as possible with modern components - Nice Shot or bismuth-- understanding these are not copper plated lead and I will likely use plastic wads - although that is not a given

i have a summer to experiment at the pattern board -
i do have a 10ga load from Pete's great chart that will pattern some old high antimony lead 4's at 91/92 percent at 40 yards out of my tighter than heck British short ten - with IMR7625 as the propellant - so I may start the quest with that powder and that shot or some old copper 6's and can then limit the non-tox testing some due to the cost of the shot- :whistle:

and before all the nay-saying - no - i don't think i can shoot like Mr Buck and am not intending to sky bust at 80 yards

just looking to have a little fun and see a nice even tight pattern that will do the job if i do mine - and a clean hit or a clean miss rather than a cripple down in the thick part of the marsh

and I do think it would be interesting to see what the old guns can do with as good of a representation of the loads they were designed around as can be recreated now a days

so- with an1 1/4 oz of shot- what load recipe would you try?

first i would use 1 3/8 ounce of shot as the first 3 inch guns used..i am presuming your guns have 3 inch chambers...i would probably use bluedot powder....charlie

I would look at using Hodgdon Long Shot powder. Slow burning, low pressure and can produce very high velocities although I would stick with slower speeds. It burns as you mention and like 7625 it provides a louder boom with the same loads using other powders.

the longrange is a 3" the Parker and Super are 2 3/4

Rick,

Try Winchester 572. It's new and it's a powder I'm going to try next.

Check out the Hodgdon site. You can get good velocities and the PSI are respectable. For the heavy stuff I always use Federal GM hulls and wads.

1 1/4 oz of lead shot
24.7 grains of 572
Federal GM hull
Federal S3 wad
Federal 209 primer
8000 PSI
1220 FPS

This new Winchester powder is strategically designed to do a myriad of jobs. First it has the correct burn rate to create the famous 3 ¼ dram equivalent, 1 ¼ oz, 1330 fps 12 gauge load, originated by Winchester. And, it does it with any brand case! Back Fence competitors and pheasant hunters will be delighted. Now, that is just one application, and it goes on to provide clay target loads superb in 20 gauge and 28 gauge, top field loads in both, and, outstanding field loads for the wonderful 16 gauge. In addition, 572 has a vast number of pistol applications, ranging from the 25 ACP to the 45 ACP, and all popular calibers in between. This is one positively versatile and useful propellant.

Thanks Frank- i saw that write up while researching this idea this weekend - i wondered about it

nice shot will add about 1500PSI - so still something the Super and these others can handle

please let me know how your tryouts go and i will as well

Why does Nice Shot increase pressure so much? Is it denser than lead, so that it is heavier for a given volume?

i actually do not know- that is the figure that seems to be accepted

but the Nice shot site only says ""Nice Shot" has a slightly higher chamber pressure than an equal lead load."


i wonder if the figure came from here

http://randywakeman.com/Nice_Shot_Re..._Pressures.htm

"Nice Shot, at 14-16 Brinell, is no harder than 5% and 6% antimony lead, or the best “magnum” shot. Hodgdon Powder Company evaluated Nice Shot, and suggested that a comfortable area to load in would be subtracting 1500 PSI from their published lead data, although the average difference in pressure was less."

and

"High-antimony lead runs approx. 11.1 g/cc density. Nice Shot runs about 10.3 g/cc. While lead reloading data is by actual weight, proper shotshell assembly is by dimension. Using a lead charge bar for Nice Shot automatically reduces payload by about 7%, so no pressure issues are plausible. "

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Rick, if you can find it, 4756 duplicates the old 3 1/4- 1 1/4 Federal live pigeon load.

oh - I can find it :rotf: its on the shelf behind the 7625

as a waterfowl load- i am concerned about its reputation for poor cold weather performance