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-   -   4 gauge winchester shell (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28287)

charlie cleveland 10-04-2019 06:38 PM

4 gauge winchester shell
 
i just came across a pretty ratty winchester leader shotgun shell box..it has 2 new empties in it...this is a box of then new empties...4 inch hulls.....my question is i wonder what loading would be recommended for the old new hulls i just am interested for my information on old shells anybody got and idea what loading this might have been....i think the load of shot would have been 3 ounces of lead shot this is the amount of lead in a eley knoch 4 ga shell...on powder i would guess about 14 drams of black powder but these hulls i have are nitro powder recommended...anybody even got a clue....charlie

Bill Murphy 10-04-2019 06:58 PM

Charlie, my sealed box of Eley fours is marked 3 ounces of BB shot. If I were to load those with smokeless, I would start with 30 grains of Red Dot with a bunch of fillers under about 1 1/2 ounces of shot. I would like that load so much that I wouldn't go any farther. Red Dot is a very fast powder but will not create high pressures in a big bore under light shot loads. 1 1/2 ounces is a very light shot load in a four bore so Red Dot is not too fast. If a slower powder is used, like Unique, pressure will be too low to make a good sound or good cold weather performance. Let us know how you do.

charlie cleveland 10-04-2019 07:36 PM

thanks bill for the info on the the loads...i m going to have to get me a 4 bore gun before i get to try out these loads....what i m interested in is how much powder one of these old 4 bores used in a factory loaded shell....i have a factory umc 4 bore loaded shell but the top wad does not give the loading in it...i looked in one winchester catologue it had some 4 bore boxes in it the old box i have is listed in it but know loading info was on them....any body have a 4 gauge shell box with loading info on it... charlie

Bill Murphy 10-04-2019 07:53 PM

You won't find a four gauge box with a smokeless load of a powder that is made today. You have to make up your own loads. It will be hard to blow up a four with sensible loads. It is hard to blow up an eight with loads that work in a ten plus about ten or twenty percent volume of powder. The problem is keeping the pressure up in the big bore. Just to be honest, I use my fifty years of loading twelve gauge shells, add the ten to twenty percent fast powder to make light loads in the ten, and don't progress to slower powders like Unique or Blue Dot until I want to load heavy loads in the ten or the eight. Even then, I go to the 12 gauge loading charts for my slow powder loads in the twelve gauge and add 10 or 15 percent for ten and eight gauge loads. The "big hole" makes the loads safe. Don't fall for the "boutique powder" trap. Use the cheap stuff we use for our other shells, like Red Dot, Unique, Blue Dot, 700x, you name it. Forget the powders that no one can find.

Dave Noreen 10-04-2019 10:17 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Mentioned in C. John Sullivan, Jr's books the gentlemen shooting on the bar at the Carroll's Island Ducking Club were using 11 to 12 drams of black powder and 3 1/2 ounces of shot in their big 4-gauge guns. From what I've found in old ammunition catalogs only Union Metallic Cartridge Co. and Winchester offered 4-gauge NPEs. Peters and Western didn't bother with this very limited market. From what I've found the big ammunition companies didn't provide loaded 4-gauge shells. They were either loaded by the users or local loaders.

UMC 1887 --

Attachment 76693

Attachment 76694

UMC 1901 --

Attachment 76695

charlie cleveland 10-04-2019 11:52 PM

thanks researcher...i read some where about some of the loadings people used in the days of the 4 bore but have forgotten where i read it...i hope someday to get a 4 ga if i can find one... i have a few 4 ga loaded shells i have a coupla eley knoch some made in paris france and several empty hulls of forign make....i have tom armbrust book of the 4 and 8 bore it has several loads in it on the 4 bore but i just wanted to know what and if what the factory loads were...11 drams of black powder would be a handful.....charlie

Paul Harm 10-05-2019 11:53 AM

About 15 to 20 years ago, I forget how long ago, I blew up my 1889 Remington hammer gun with a extreme overload and bought my first Parker from a fellow who had many old SxSs. He was a railroad engineer that drove trains from Canada into Michigan and in his travels he bought many guns from Canada during their struggles with different gun laws. The whole second floor of his house was filled with guns. I got to hold a 6ga SxS and a 4ga single barrel gun. He even had a couple of shells for each gun. They were both heavy brutes. I've often wonder what kind of stories they could tell.

charlie cleveland 10-05-2019 08:53 PM

paul thats one shell i have never seen is a 6 gauge....i have a 2 ga and a 3 ga remington in my small collection...i almost bought a 6 ga muzzle loader a few years back... charlie

Dave Noreen 10-06-2019 10:43 AM

The Southern California Arms Collectors Association did a display at the 1987 NRA convention in Reno, Nevada. The display included "what is believed to be the only American 4-bore hammerless double barrelled shotgun, made by Charles Edward Sneider, 214 W. Pratt St., Baltimore, MD. It has 38-inch barrels and weighs 28 1/2 pounds." Their handout goes on to say "it is chambered for a brass shell that can hold 22 grams (?) of powder and six ounces of shot." I suspect that should be drams and would be the load the gun held, 11 drams and 3 ounces in each barrel? In my years of doing a display at the MACA show at Timonium, I saw two or three 4-bore singles by Sneider come in.

charlie cleveland 10-06-2019 04:58 PM

this 4 bore was much of a gunat 28 1/2 pounds i would have to hire some body to shoot it for me...i once almost got a manton 4 bore it had 40 inch barrels and weighed 24 1/2 lbs it was a hammer gun....a fellow that can handle and shoot the 4 bore well is seldom seen i could not handle one well myself even in my younger years....charlie


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