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-   -   Black powder (https://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25858)

Daniel Carter 12-03-2018 04:43 PM

Black powder
 
Anyone have experience loading black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex in shotgun shells? I am planning on loading some 10 and 12 ga. for clay target shooting and have the recipes from here and another forum but '' real'' black powder is hard to come by here.

Harry Collins 12-03-2018 04:53 PM

I use Alliant's Black MZ.The cost is about half of other substitutes at $11.00 a pound. I have not loaded any shotgun shells with it. Only precussion pistols, rifles, and cartridges. It is very forgiving when it comes to cleaning.

Rick Losey 12-03-2018 05:46 PM

https://mainepowderhouse.com/

Daniel Carter 12-03-2018 07:00 PM

Thank you. A member has given me a company fairly close who has the powder i want in stock and i will pick up Wed. Any experience with substitutes in shotguns ?

charlie cleveland 12-03-2018 09:48 PM

if you load pyrodex make sure you clean your gun good before you store it away...it rusts faster than black powder ever did....charlie

Mills Morrison 12-03-2018 09:55 PM

Order RST and don't worry about it.

Harry Collins 12-03-2018 10:27 PM

Plastic wads will melt with black powder and it’s substitutes. Use fiber wads available from Circle Fly Wads. The old standard was a square load. That is an equal volume of powder, wads, and shot. I use MagTech extruded brass and wads one gauge larger. For 12 gauge I use 11 gauge wads. There is 10 gauge extruded brass out there with Parker on them but they are expensive.

Daniel Carter 12-04-2018 09:52 AM

Mills i checked the RST website and did not see BP loads listed, did i miss them? My reason for getting these must be kept quite because some of my clay shooting partners are members here but not frequent visitors.

Rick Losey 12-04-2018 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Carter (Post 259470)
My reason for getting these must be kept quite because some of my clay shooting partners are members here but not frequent visitors.

:rotf:



i'm sure its not your reason- but a funny BP story -

many years ago a friend and his dad belonged to a small gun club- and it was quite disappointing to members to find out some one was stealing boxes of shells from members who left them sitting unguarded on tables in the club house- so one day my friend's dad set a box of AA's with his stuff on a table and left them there when they went out to shoot a round. My friend said something to his dad who simply said don't worry about it- sure enough, when they came back in the box of shells was gone.

His dad laughed and said lets go sit outside and watch people shoot. they were only there for a few minutes when a guy stepped up to station one on a skeet field and called for his bird - BOOOM goes the shot in cloud of smoke. the shooter looked around to see everyone staring at him, then picked up his stuff and left, never to return to that club.

yup- he had loaded that box with black powder

Mills Morrison 12-04-2018 10:28 AM

RST does not make black powder loads. They make smokeless loads with pressures comparable to black powder.

Daniel Carter 12-04-2018 12:09 PM

Rick thank you for a second reason to load them. Mills my desire for BP is mischief not low pressure, i have that under control with reloading. I am afraid i may have tipped my hand with this thread.

charlie cleveland 12-04-2018 06:37 PM

paper hull shells do fine with black powder....charlie

James Halvorson 12-05-2018 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Losey (Post 259473)
:rotf:



i'm sure its not your reason- but a funny BP story -

many years ago a friend and his dad belonged to a small gun club- and it was quite disappointing to members to find out some one was stealing boxes of shells from members who left them sitting unguarded on tables in the club house- so one day my friend's dad set a box of AA's with his stuff on a table and left them there when they went out to shoot a round. My friend said something to his dad who simply said don't worry about it- sure enough, when they came back in the box of shells was gone.

His dad laughed and said lets go sit outside and watch people shoot. they were only there for a few minutes when a guy stepped up to station one on a skeet field and called for his bird - BOOOM goes the shot in cloud of smoke. the shooter looked around to see everyone staring at him, then picked up his stuff and left, never to return to that club.

yup- he had loaded that box with black powder

That's a great story! That would have been something to witness.

Every so often there'll be a live round left on the gun rack at the club almost intentional like. I've never been brave enough to touch one of those off.

Eric Johanen 12-06-2018 10:20 AM

I have ben using 1 fg in the 10 and 1.5 fg in the 12. 4 dram and 1.25 oz for the 10 and 3 dram with 1 oz in the 12. Old Eynsford shoots the cleanest and fouling is soft and relatively light, Results on the clays are very good with performance equal to smoke less powder loads. At the Tunnel of Trees this year I shot my Army&Navy 1880's back action hammer gun and ran a 27 of 30 on the Incoming Challenge. I shot well and had many ask about my loads which were put up in Cheddite paper hulls. One can easily run 50+ shots without any fouling problems and then a brush and a few patches and you are ready for the next stage. Many years ago I purchased Pyrodex Cartridge when it was being discontinued on a close out price and use it in the 10 ga. Works fine with a plastic hull and card and fiber wad column 4 dram and 1.25 oz shot. Performance is quite good and fouling is light making clean up a breeze. About the only load I use to use up my supply of this powder. I still have about 5 pounds of it left. Pyrodex 2 fg can be used but I'd use a lighter dram equivalent to lessen the recoil. While black powder subs can be used I do prefer real black powder now with OE. I do like the 12 ga Cheddite papers with a roll crimp for black powder loads and use them often for clays and in the fields. Federal papers with a 6 point crimp also works nicely. Hot soap and water, brushing and patches make for an easy cleanup. If you are interested in loading some old time loads I'd use OE and you might be surprised in how well it actually works on the course and in the fields. It really is great fun!

Daniel Carter 12-06-2018 10:32 AM

Thank you- I appreciate your taking the time to reply and the detail of it.

James Halvorson 12-06-2018 04:34 PM

Eric- Why do you prefer the coarser BP in your shotgun loads?
Also, why Pyrodex in 10 gauge only?

Eric Johanen 12-07-2018 09:32 AM

Main reason is felt recoil. 4 to 4.25 drams and 1.25 oz shot with 2 or 3 fg is a pretty stout load and can be punishing for a 50 shot course. 1 fg cuts down on the recoil and still performs quite well on clays and birds. OE 1.5 fg is more like Goex 2 fg in grain size and the performance is outstanding. Black powder works best in smooth bores and I only use up the Pyrodex Cartridge in the 10 ga. Years ago when I used a Shiloh Sharps in 45-120 I had worked up a good load using the Cartridge grade. I bought a good supply when on close out and it sat on the shelf for many years until I tried a short 10 Greener and decided to use it up. 110 grains of Pyrodex Cartridge works well in that hull and is an excuse to use the powder up. 12 and 16's I really like black powder best and clean up is about the same for both powders so why not use the real stuff. With Cheddite supplying paper hulls in both 12 and 16 black powder is excellent for an old time shooting experience. I do doubt that 10 ga papers will ever be produced and the market is just too small to make it worth while and plastic is the only option and they do work well, just not the same experience as a paper hull. When you get a squad of black powder shooters and vintage doubles on the course or 5 stand it brings back the shooting experience of the Victorian/Edwardian era It is really quite a sight to see!

Paul Harm 12-08-2018 03:14 PM

I too don't like recoil. For me, a 4 dram load is out of the question. In 12ga, 75grs of 3F and 1oz of shot will break any clay bird. Federal papers can be cut to 2 1/2" and roll crimped. They look just fine. For the 10, 82grs of 2F and 1oz of shot will also break any clay bird without the recoil. Nothing would change with any of the BP substitutes.

Jay Oliver 12-09-2018 10:43 AM

This has been a great thread with a lot of good information. I'll add a few things and I have some questions as well.

It is relatively easy to reload black powder shotshells with hand tools. When I first bought a 2 5/8" 10 gauge lifter, I wasn't set up for reloading. I cut down RST plastic shells and loaded them with the Goex 2ff black powder, nitro card, fiber wad, shot and then glued on a over shot card. I usually got 2 reloads out of the plastic shells. This video helped get me started in the very beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZ4IBv0Bg9U

I then had to try the all brass shotshells. Magtech is a cheap way to get started into this, though they only make up to 12 gauge. Track of the Wolf sells some great replica Parker Bros. brass shotshells in 10 and 12 gauge in a few different chamber lengths. I love these and they also sell a really good reloading guide for them as well. These seem like the closest thing you can get today that replicate what our hammer guns were shooting back when they were new. Loading is the same as shown in the video above with powder, nitro card, fiber wad, shot, over shot card glued in place.

With paper shells you can load by hand and then roll crimp at the end with an overshot card. I like this method as well and you can still get paper shells in everything but a 10 gauge. You can buy 2 1/2" primed Cheddite Paper hulls that give you a head start for the first time you load them.

Since I have started reloading in 12 and 10 gauge with a press, I have crimped plastic shells so they look like any other shotshell. I usually get 2 reloads out of these as well, most of the time they are RST/Cheddite hulls. The only real difference is instead of gluing an overshot card you crimp the shell using the last 2 stations of your press. I like these too, but I still end up putting in the powder by hand. It's a little quicker and the shells could be used in repeaters, like an 1887(which I really need to get) or early pumps 1893/1897(I could use one of those too...). The roll crimped paper shells would fall into this as well.

Regardless of the loading method, I think it is a must try for a hammer gun shooter. Take the time to load some and see how much fun it is to shoot black powder. I love the feeling I get when I shoot a double with black powder. It is a fun experience and really easier to get into than regular reloading.

My question is on different powders. I have always used 2ff Goex in all my black powder shooting regardless of gauge, though I have only loaded and shot target loads. I have a Tundra Swan and duck hunt coming up in January and only want to use black powder shells. I do have time to test some combinations before I go. I have seen/read how several people like the Old Eynsford powder. Thank for your info and insight on this powder Eric, it makes me want to try OE. I will be using a 10 gauge Top Action Parker made in 1882.

I was about to place a black powder order with Maine Powder House and I think I will try some Old Eynsford. I had seen how everyone likes 1.5f in OE, for the 10 gauge could I use that or would you go to 1f of OE? I do have several cans of 1f Goex that I bought for an original musket and then I returned the gun. I have ordered BB and #2 ITX original 10 shot t use for non-toxic shot for the hunting trip. I had wanted BBB for the Swan hunt, but everyone was out, I may be able to find some before I go.

A long post…hopefully it reduces some of the intimidation factor in reloading and shooting black powder in our Parkers. In addition, it shows even after doing it for awhile you can still have questions.

Eric Johanen 12-09-2018 03:03 PM

I've switched to OE because of it's cleaner and softer fouling and the finer grain size makes for more velocity. 1.5 for the 12 and 16 ga and 1 fg for the 10 only because it bulks up better and you need a shorter wad column. Even the short 10 has a bunch of capacity and a 4 dram load of 1 fg with 1.25 oz of shot makes a very effective load. 4.25 dram load would be a outstanding field load! And again the only reason I use the Pyrodex Cartridge is to use it up. Works ok but real black is much better.

Paul Harm 12-13-2018 03:58 PM

I've never given " cleaner burning " powders with a shotgun a second thought - it's a smooth bore, not a rifle. If there's a little more fouling at the end of the day, so be it. It all comes out with a couple of passes with a tornado brush, a soapy water patch, and a clean water patch. But that's just me. Grafs sells their brand of BP cheaper than the others. I usually get 20 pounds at once to make the hazmat fee a little more bearable. Or get a couple of buddies to go in with you. In the past I've used 1F, 2F, and 3F for shotguns. It takes less powder for the finer the powder. For 1oz loads it's 75/3f, 82/2F, and 94/1F. Actually 82grs is the load normally used with 1 1/8oz 12ga loads. And probably 2F is what most guys would use. That's a 3 dram load that is suppose to have a 1200fps velocity. But my Lyman BP handbook shows a 3 1/4 dram load of 2F to achieve 1200fps with fiber wads. This is in muzzle loaders, but I don't think there'd be much difference if it were cartridge loads. I sometimes use a star crimp for BP, but normally cut the 1/4" of crimp of a paper or plastic shell and use a roll crimp. Then I can write or use one of my stamps on the over shot card of what's inside. With the stamp I use black ink if it's a BP load and red ink if it's a nitro load. You can get the stamps and roll crimper from BPI. A star crimp is used for good " friends "- I just slip one in their shell pocket when they're not looking. A buddy left his plastic container of WWs in the club house one day. I load just Remingtons so I had to find a couple of WWs and load them with smoke. It took me about 3 shells before I could get them looking exactly like his so he wouldn't notice the difference. Once about 9 years ago there was 5 of us shooting skeet and one friend was shooting twice at birds he missed. At station 6 he was getting low so I said here, have one of mine. At that time I was loading BP in Federal shells only so I knew what was what. It was just getting dark out and he was shooting a ported Browning O/U. When he shot, the gun with flames coming out of the ports about 12" went up in the air almost out of his hands. After a bunch of cuss words he said he thought he blew the gun up. NO BODIEE ask me for a shell anymore. I can't even give one away.

Kingston Wulff 01-30-2019 12:12 AM

I really like the story above about the BP load in a modern Browning O/U.
I picked up a D grade this last year and it is now with a gunsmith to recut the checkering. Meanwhile, I managed to pick up a #2G grade with Damascus barrels that also need some cosmetic stock work. I was not prepared to do partial restorations on the stocks and finish on two Parkers at the same time but the opportunity was there! I could not bear the thought of someone tossing these guns away. To me; shooting a vintage Parker with BP loads is just another cartridge to reload. I think I will stay with BP loads for ease of reloading, plus RST loads are still higher in pressure than the original BP loads were. These early guns were not proofed for smokeless, so why shoot it with smokeless? The reaction from other shooters at the trap range is worth it.

Paul Harm 01-31-2019 02:14 PM

Kingston, shooting BP is fine. I do it for fun, but normally shoot nitro in all my SxSs, even the Damascus barrel ones. Don't think you can't, or shouldn't shoot nitro in them. It's easy to keep pressures down at 7000psi, or even under. Now you're at BP pressure loads. Those barrels won't know the difference. I know Remington claimed their barrels were proofed for nitro loads so I'm sure Parker guns would be every bit as strong. I just got done shooting a 1873 Damascus barrel gun at 5-stand with nitro. No problems.

CraigThompson 01-31-2019 06:44 PM

I’ve not loaded BP or a substitute in shells . I do however have an original 10 gauge percussion SxS I shoot some . Charlie’s correct Pyrodex is just as much trouble to clean as regular BP . In my 10 gauge I use granulated Hodgdons 777 . Pyrodex like BP has corrosive properties 777 does not . I’ve left ML deer rifles fired and uncleaned for a couple months (by accident) and when I went to clean them there was NO corrosion . With 777 all you need is tap water I prefer hot hot water but cold will do the job . You can take unburned 777 drip some water on it and it dissolves .

CraigThompson 01-31-2019 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Harm (Post 264396)
Kingston, shooting BP is fine. I do it for fun, but normally shoot nitro in all my SxSs, even the Damascus barrel ones. Don't think you can't, or shouldn't shoot nitro in them. It's easy to keep pressures down at 7000psi, or even under. Now you're at BP pressure loads. Those barrels won't know the difference. I know Remington claimed their barrels were proofed for nitro loads so I'm sure Parker guns would be every bit as strong. I just got done shooting a 1873 Damascus barrel gun at 5-stand with nitro. No problems.

I agree 200% I don’t want BP in my damascus/twist cartridge guns and use smokeless exclusively . Nothing wrong with others that wish to use BP but it’s my choice NOT to .


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