Roll Crimping
 

It's the little things that excite me the most lately.
I've always enjoyed roll crimping paper hulls, and I've used a variety of crimping tools. My favorite 12 gauge tool is a deluxe Bridgeport Gun Implement 4 pin crimper. The end result, on new Cheddite hulls is a crimp like the good old days.
My new adventure is roll crimping 28 gauge, so I bought a BPI roll tool, and was unimpressed. The roll was squared off, and uneven. The tool profile is entirely wrong, and it only has one rolling rod. Hopes of finding a good antique was short lived.
After a long search of threads on a variety of sites, I found chatter about a guy named Nick Ross. Nick obviously thought the old timers knew what made a tool right. He produces a beautiful FOUR pin tool.
The profile is 100% correct and his tool is nitride hardened (The Reloaders Network says it's case hardened) for long lasting durability. The BPI roll tool is crude and the working surface is far from what a machinist would consider acceptable.
At twice the price of BPI's tool ($49.95 and free shipping), the roll tool is hands down superior. Nothing less than a perfect roll on plastic and paper is the result, with no galling of once fired paper (cases trimmed to 2 1/2")
The Reloaders Network sells the tool in 10ga. thru .410.
I am not a paid spokesperson, just a satisfied guy with time on his hands.

I got a real nice 28 bore old style roll crimper here somewhere .... nice shiny brass.

I also found the square shouldered crimp with the BPI and wasn't impressed.

I keep looking for a vintage roll crimped for 2" shells. I haven't found one yet. Maybe I need to go this route.

Ken

You would, you bugger.

Edgar, I've got 40-50 RST blue paper hulls in 16 ga-yours if you want them.

I can't do them justice, Harold, until I can get one of Nick's tools in 16. I have a BPI and it galls the hell out of once fired hulls. Ugly ammo isn't as bad as ugly guns, but close.

I agree with your assessment Edgar of BPI's roll crimper as well. I didn't like the crimps I got out of it either so I purchased one from Precision Reloading and that one works much better.

Edgar thanks for this post. I attempted to improve the bpi by adding three more roll pins on my 8 ga crimper but I believe the internal geometry is just not right as the crimps still dont turn out correct. I might have to order that Nick Ross one in 10 ga.

Eldon, I also have a BPI 8ga. roll crimper, and, like you, am not happy with it’s results. The number of pins certainly helps getting the rolling started, but the coarse finish of their tool causes a falling of the edge, square or otherwise. I couldn’t be more pleased with the Nick Ross tool.
I like the collet fixture on your mill. Is it R8, or 5C ? Does it also rotate? I have an old Brown & Sharpe dividing head with collet holding but I can’t seem to locate correct (new) collets, and dividing head jobs take me twice as long because I have to keep refreshing my memory on rotation/ degree increments. The superspacer is too large, from OD to workpiece.

Not knowing this, I ordered a few from both BPI and Precision(depending on what was in stock). I haven't used them yet.

My 16 gauge one is from Precision. I am hoping to use it this week to make some roll crimp shells for my top action 16 gauge. If it doesn't work well I am going to order the one you recommend Edgar. That makes sense to me to get a quality tool that does it right.

Hopefully, I'll have some nice shells for my 16 when we meet up at Addieville.

Terry;

I'm not a roll crimper but find it a very satisfying to look at. For clarification, which roll crimping tool in your first picture is the preferred one and what is meant by the "pin" in the crimper?

Maybe if I live as long as you I'll take up roll crimping when I have some free time.

It holds 5c collets. It doesn’t rotate but threads down and locks the collets in place. I have one for hex as well. The machinist at work showed me today we have a hardinge indexer for 5c as well.

The black one is the Nick Ross crimper. The pin (1 in BPI, 4 in Ross) is a round rod, about 3/32" , seated from the side on a tangent.
As old as me? I thought when I met you years ago, that I was in the company of the last living Civil War vet.

Not THAT Civil War but the one we are in now.:)

I just went to the " reloaders network " web site and couldn't find the roll crimpers. Any help ?

On the main page, click ‘Store’, then Shotgun, then the gauge you’re interested in.

Jay,
I have a 16 gauge precision reloading roll crimper and it works great.

Thanks, I found it. Their crimps are a whole lot deeper than mine. I think pressures may raise with a crimp that deep. I could be wrong - maybe someone else can chime in.

Whose crimps? The one shown on Reloaders is the same picture in all gauges (12). Depth from the rollover to the overshot card is entirely variable, and controllable. It's possible to get greater rollover depth with plastic hulls, than paper, but new Cheddite hulls are very pliable. Hull length, wad selection and shot charge all affect the height of the total charge. If you have a favorite wad, and the charge is well below the top of the case, you can select a different wad to bring it up, or trim the hulls, or, if it's only marginally lowere, use two or even three overshot cards.
The top of the shot only needs to be about 1/8" below the rim of the hull, and the rollover will be 180 degree reversed.
With regard to pressure, there's lots of data out there. All I have sent to Precision have been lower than folded samples of like charges.

The four shells, below, are, left-right:
Factory Eley 2.5" 5/8oz.
Once fired Winchester paper Super-X hull, trimmed to 2.4", Fiocchi RO28 wad, 5/8oz.
New Cheddite hull, trimmed to 2.5", Fiocchi RO28 wad, 3/4oz
New Cheddite hull, trimmed to 2.5", BPI SP28 wad, 5/8 oz

The difference between the Cheddite 5/8oz load, and Winchester Paper 5/8oz load is because the Paper hulls had very high base wad. The Winchester Hull with the SP28 wad only allows 9/16oz when trimmed the same.

good looking roll crimps to me wish mine looked that good....charlie

Maybe it's my old eyes, but the one RC shell appeared to have a real deep RC - maybe a 1/2". I could be wrong. I realize the depth can be controlled, I've roll crimped for years. It's been commented before on this forum that deep RCs raise the pressure. I don't know - was just stating something I had read before. Has anyone sent shells in to be tested with the only difference between them, the depth of a RC ? All mine are around the 1/8" roll over. I also think, for the money, the one from Precision Reloading works very well. Round or flat roll overs - both were used back in the day and one could order the style he wanted. So please don't think only the round roll over is historically correct.

Paul, which picture are you referring to with a crimp that appears 1/2" deep?
Of mine, the shell on the left, of the picture of four, is a factory Eley, and it's a tiny bit deeper than mine, but it's a 9/16oz load. It isn't even 1/8", and none of mine are more than .090".
If you mean the one on the Reloaders Net page, that is a slug, with a card. I have no slug experience, and never paid them any attention, but every roll crimped slug I have seen is, as your "old eyes" suggest, about 1/2" (see picture of European 20ga slug)
My Bridgeport 12ga. crimper is convertible from rounded to square, but I leave it as round, as it seems to produce a cleaner crimp on once fired paper.

You may find this link informative.
https://wethearmed.com/reloading-and...vs-fold-crimp/

It doesn't speak specifically to your question regarding possible pressures of 'excessively deep' crimps, but my belief is the crimp only needs to adequately hold the over-shot card in place, not achieve a finished, loaded shell dimension. Plastic crimps won't hold a card permanently in place unless they do a 180, but once it does that, why go deeper?

Edger, I agree with you on crimp depth. I found that my old RCers if you rotate the pins you can change from a flat top to a round top. I found that out by reading a reproduction Sears catalog for the early 1900s. I never took much stock about round or flat top crimps. If they're rolled over nice, that's all I care about. Nice photos.

I have placed an order with Reloaders Network for a 10, 12, 16 and 20 crimpers and some other accessories. The BPI one I had for 20 gauge just didn’t work(for me anyway) the 16 gauge from Precision is okay, but not great in my opinion. I have original hand crank crimpers for 10 and 12 which work well. It will be nice to have some quality tools for this.

However, I just bought a nice little English sxs 12 gauge 2” gun and the hand turn crimper will not crimp shells that short. The shortest I could go is 2 1/8” which work well in the gun and I can still put a nice roll crimp on them with my hand turn crimper. I am looking forward to real nice drill roll crimper so I'll be able to make 2" shells.

On that “new” 2-inch 12 gauge, I have been having so much fun with it. I had to make some shells for it and since there is not a lot of room they need to be roll crimped. Here are some I made with an original hand turn roll crimper.

The 50 on the left are new cut hulls and my 9 year old daughter likes to decorate the overshot cards. The upper right are once fired 2 1/8” shells that I have already shot once. And the bottom right are cut once fired 2 ½ RSTs. We had fun making these…

I am using a Gualdini light brush wad, 3/4oz of shot and 14.5 grains of Red Dot. I’ll likely drop down to 14 grains when I reload these at 2”(just so I can have a little more room in the case and make a real 2” shell). The RST 3/4oz 2” is going at 1100fps, so I think I will be around that velocity.

The things we do to put a smile on our face. Rolling your own may not set the record for production, but they are nice to look at, yield lower pressures, and, what I like the most, is that it gives you more case capacity for powder, wad, and shot combinations. Why use up valuable hull length simply to get a folded crimp?
I started rolling many years ago, and stuck pretty much to 12 ga., mostly because the new tools on the market didn't give satisfactory results. The tool from the Reloadlers Network changed that.
2 1/2" 28ga was limited to 5/8 ounce, but roll crimping allowed for 3/4 ounce, and the performances, as tested by a fellow member on his chronograph, yields a nice 1175 fps load, with noticeably less recoil than a factory Fiocchi 2 3/4" load.

Edgar, if I can find my grandfathers/dad's roll crimper, I'll pack it up and ship it to you free of charge.

I'm not artistically gifted, so I get inexpensive self-inking stamps for the overshot cards.

Thank you, Allen, but you should put it to use. Those shells will go well with your Vintagers outfit.

I like that stamp! That makes it quick and easy.

Edgar, is the stamp you use made up for one load specifically, or can you dial the numbers to get what you want?

Thanks, Stan

Stan, I wish it was changeable, but they are single use stamps. They're under ten bucks at Rubberstamps.com

Ordered 3 roll crimpers today from The Reloaders Network
10b; 12b & 16b
Thanks for the heads up!
Jim

Thanks, Edgar. I'll look at that site.

I got my tools from Reloader's Network. Just to test a few things out, I made 2 quick 16 gauge shells with a hand drill and their shell vice. It was easy and I like the results...

I just ordered a $49.99 quad pin 10 gauge roll crimper off reloaders network from the “loads of bacon” YouTuber. There really only two other currently manufactured roll crimper I could find. A one pin from BPI and a 2 pin from precision reloading. Both for $28, plus shipping, plus tax. So for another $10, or less, I ordered the quad pin roller with zero tax charged and free shipping. Cant wait to try it out.

I cut these hills down and glued the shot cards in place. The cuts aren’t perfectly even. Is there enough hull left to roll crimp my shells below? Do I need to cut them perfectly even to get a good roll crimp? I hot glued the shot cards in place so I would assume it would make a mess. I will probably just shoot these up and start with fresh hulls to roll crimp. Just wondering how much hull I need to leave above the shot card for a proper roll crimp. Cant wait! I’m guessing with using this roll crimper I can load shells that will reliably feed and keep the shot inside my hull while cycling through a semi auto?

https://i.imgur.com/BVeWIhi.jpg

You will find the Ross roll crimper to be an excellent tool. I've tried all the others, and have been rolling my own for years.
You will find the amount of hull above the overshot card, necessary for a good crimp varies a little, depending if the hulls are cut down or NEW and Skived. The difference is the thickness of the wall to be rolled. The rollover only needs to make a 180 degree turn, and any more than that is unnecessary, and may result in slight increase in pressure.
I leave about 3/16" of excess hull on 12ga. New Cheddite hulls, cutdown Federal hulls, and some New Paper Alcans I bought here.
My 28gauge hulls, with 3/4oz. of 7.5 or 8 shot, cut to 2 1/2", leave more with SG28-II wads than Fiocchi RO28 wads. I stick with hull lengths that match the chamber for best gas seal. I don't want to trim hulls to accommodate certain wads, so until I find a filler, I'd either have to use an extra couple overshot cards, or end up with an unnecessarily deep rollover.
I'm making it my rule of thumb is to find the correct wad for the shot/powder charge, and not vary the case length because of a compromise in components. Not easily done with the shortages we see today.
To your question about the cleanliness of the cut; yes, it matters. If you do a search, you'll find the hull trimmer jig I made, which yields a perfect edge.

Thanks for the tips.

My efforts with roll crimping plastic hulls resulted in very nice finished shells (after a bit of effort and experimenting) but after firing the mouth of the cases was a mess. It retained some inward "roll" and was pretty ugly, basically non-reloadable. Is this the norm or am I doing something very wrong?

Dug these out of the trash.

Your fired hulls appear they were skived. The plastic does retain some memory, and will still exhibit a slight inward roll, which needs to be conditioned before de/repriming and sizing. Several suppliers sell a tapered aluminum tool which does a good job at this. plunging the tool (in the drill press) and holding it for a few seconds, to generate heat, brings the hull back to a reloadable condition.
Paper hulls retain no memory so this isn't an issue.
The only plastic hulls I reload are trimmed to 2 1/2", so 2 3/4" once fired hulls loose the skived portion, and all the new plastic I load are either purchased, unskived, to length, or trimmed to 2 1/2" from new 2 3/4" purchased hulls.