Question about damascus barrels and turkey loads

[will evans]

I've been reading around the net about low pressure turkey loads. I've read quite a few stories of people who found that their low pressure loads didn't quite offer the penetration they wanted on longer shots. One recommendation I've read involves using #6 or even #7-1/2 shot for shooting within 20 yards, while having your other barrel loaded with larger pellets for deeper penetration at distances out to 40 yards. The more common suggestions were to load the other barrel with loads of #2 or #4, the idea being that the larger pellets offered better penetration.

I'm not set up to reload 2-1/2" 16ga shells, so a custom load isn't really an option. I'm also having trouble finding a load with shot size larger than #5. RST offers a copper plated shot, but only in #6. They have #5 shot in both 7/8 and 1oz loads. Polywad offers shot size up to #5 lead shot.

So what are my other options? I have wondered about buying a 20ga or 28ga sub gauge tube, but that only benefits me if I can use a modern shell because I'm in the same box with vintage 20ga loads as with the 16ga.

I am wanting to use a 16ga hammer gun with damascus barrels. Is it true that the reduction in pressure created by the space around the chamber gauge makes using a 20ga shell safe? Gun in question is an LC Smith 16ga hammer gun with .30 and .34 constriction.

I've seen the numbers on 16ga to 28ga, but not for dropping from 16ga to 20ga. I'm also a little skeptical about shooting a 28ga shell out to that distance on turkeys, even though lots of people claim a 28ga patterns as well or better than a 20ga. Plus, I've never looked for #4 or #2 28ga loads. I don't know if they're made, given the typical use of that gauge for upland birds and clays.

Am I just as well off going with the #6 copper plated loads from RST, assuming they pattern well?

Thanks for your input and shared experience.

[will evans]

Well I think I've received one answer, at least in regards to the use of gauge mates. That answer is basically "round peg, square hole." In speaking with the owner of Gauge Mates, he discussed with me that there is no pressure drop because there really is no air gap between the bores and the gauge mate. He also said that the 20ga wad still seals in the bore of the 16ga barrel, meaning no resulting significant decrease in pressure. In short, a modern 20ga load doesn't sound like a good idea in a 16ga damascus barrel, although the owner of Gauge Mates stopped a llittle short of saying that himself. What he said was that a modern load using the gauge mates would be safer than using a modern load without the gauge mates, and he was clearly open to the idea of selling me a set for my purposes.

The barrels might be fine 1000 times, but any failure percentage greater than 0.00000 is unacceptable in this situation. So now I'm looking for an opinion on the RST copper #6 vs an alternative low pressure turkey load for use in my gun out to 40 yards.

[Dean Romig]

Here's one man's opinion... Use the tightest choke available to you and if ypur Damascus 16 fits the bill then use that gun. take no shot at greater than 35 - 40 yards with a full choke and in my experience #6 shot will bust any bone in a turkey's head or neck.

We are centering the bead on the head aren't we??

[will evans]

True, and I'm probably over thinking it. It's not like a turkey has a head made of steel. This will be my first season hunting turkeys with a vintage gun and low pressure loads, thus the concern with trying to learn a little more about the loads. I started reading about it and read several posts on other forums about people having their turkeys run off - actually, one of them might have been a story in the last Parker pages. People had theorized that the low pressure load was resulting in low penetration at longer distances, but for all I really know the hunter had tried to shoot the turkey while it was in a tuck and had simply missed the head. Or maybe they didn't even shoot at the head. I have a rule to never shoot at a turkey when he is in a tucked position. You can roll the turkey but miss the head. Up they'll jump and run off. I try to shoot when his head is up and neck stretched. If you do that and they still run off then you probably missed him.

[Dean Romig]

I agree with every point you made.

[tom tutwiler]

Think the best thing to do is take a smattering of whatever low pressure shells you have and set up a turkey target at about 30 yards and see how many hits you get in the head and neck area. If you get 12 - 15 your good to go at that range. If you get much more then that you can perhaps extend your range out a bit. I think 35 yards is pushing it for a double with low pressure loads. But those targets don't lie. Figure out what you max distance is and then limit yourself to that distance. If anyone wants to kill a turkey at 40 yards, they probably aren't going to use damascus barreled guns.

[Jerry Harlow]

Will,

Just my opinions, not worth too much.

I wrote the article in the last PP you are referring to. I only shoot turkeys in the head when their head is turned sideways (profile) and neck is up, never in a strut. You mention a turkey's head is not made out of steel... well just hitting them in the head is not what kills them. Stun them yes, as in my story with 1150 fps 6s at 35 yards. I am so accustomed to killing them with 3.5 inch 10s and 12s and hevi-shot, I chose the wrong barrel.

But the head shot is designed to go through the eye socket and into the brain or through the skull into the brain or break a neck.

If you will look at the data, most low pressure loads are about 1200 fps, some less. To have the energy to break a neck bone, penetrate the skull, etc. in my opinion it takes more than lead 6s at over 30 yards going only 1200 fps. Now copper plated 6s or 5s may do it. But a load of number 4s or 2s at the same distance and fps will do the trick.

Most turkey loads designed for modern magnums are pretty slow but contain an awful lot of shot, up to 2.25 ounces in 10 and 12 magnums. You can kill them with almost anything at twenty yards or less, if you can hit their head with a small pattern. The hunting shows and turkey choke tube commercials are fun to watch a ten yard shot, but the gun has a choke and pattern to allow a sure kill at certain distances. If you are going to shoot a turkey at 15 yards, you don't need an extra extra full.

I believe the large bore guns with full chokes are designed for the 30 to 35 yard ranges, with the right shot size, for a certain kill. You'll notice in my story there was no problem with the last turkey at 30 yards with 4s. A broken neck put him down. For me it's 4s right, 2s left. Full and Full or Mod. and Full. If a 6 will kill him, a 4 certainly will.

And I don't care who you are or how long you have been hunting, when a big tom stops at 35 yards in the wide open (and it will always look to you like 25), starts looking around like he has changed his mind, most people are going to pull the trigger.

If I had your 16 with a M & F or F & F I would do 1 oz. copper 6s in right out to 20 yards, 1 oz. 5s in the left out to 25. Remember, the 16 is considered the biggest of the "small bores."

[Mills Morrison]

I notice RST makes no. 2 & 4 in Nice Shot for 12 and 10 gauge. These are waterfowl loads, but might be an option if you want such shot in low pressure. I have no. 5 RST shot and am just going to see how that works. I hunted with Damascus barrels last season for the first time, but did not get any shots off, so this is my first season for all practical purposes. SC season opens Friday and with luck I will be out all weekend

[Dean Romig]

The key here gentlemen is pattern density - pattern density - pattern density... shot sizes of #4 and #2 will not deliver the density you need. A lucky pellet or perhaps two might hit their mark at distances of 35 - 40 yards but don't count on it. A turkey's skull is not much more than paper thin and the vertabrae are likewise pretty fragile. No. 6 shot will easily break a pheasant's wing bones at greater than 40 yards so why wouldn't no. 6 shot make a mess of a turkey's head and neck at a maximum of 40 yards? I've killed every turkey I've shot at with such loads and never had to chase one down.

Further DSR sayeth naught (to coin a phrase).

[will evans]

Was your story the one where you had to run down a turkey? I was laughing in my "library" while you were trying to find another shell in your satchel. It made me think of a time I went grouse hunting and had a better day than expected. When I left the truck with 8 shells and 2 hours of daylight, I figured I would be tickled to death to run out of shells. Well I ran out of shells and was the most pleasantly disgruntled hunter the woods have ever seen.

I'm still all ears if anyone knows of an off the shelf or special order option for larger shot, low pressure loads I can acquire.

[Dennis V. Nix]

Quite a discussion among turkey hunters and I appreciate the information I am learning. I have only shot one turkey and it was years ago with a Remington 870 and number 6 shot. A friend called him in to about 35 yards. The turkey stuck his head up and I shot. He fell over dead. Forgive me and I realize I haven't the experience the rest of you have but I always wonder why in the world somebody needs a 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge magnum to kill a turkey. Ethical hunters shoot at the head and I agree with Dean about density of shot. Sure you can use buckshot, number 2's etc. but as I read above the head and neck is not made of steel. It is soft flesh and bone. I would think that within 30-35 yards a 20 or 16 gauge gun with a pattern that centers the head/neck should be ideal. I wonder what mega loads our forefathers with blunderbusses used. I wonder if they had a 3 1/2 inch style wheellock or flintlock back then. Probably not. If I had to shoot my turkey all over again I would be happy with a 20 or 16 gauge gun with an ounce of 6's. Again I don't mean to be offensive just wondering why everyone simply HAS to use a cannon to kill a bird IF aiming at the head.

[Dean Romig]

I don't mean to be offensive just wondering why everyone simply HAS to use a cannon to kill a bird IF aiming at the head.

Because the shotgun and ammo manufacturing companies tell us we simply have to use these WMD's to get the job done... but nothing could be further from the truth. A good eye and a tight shooting gun coupled with a dense pattern centering the head and neck is all that one needs.

[E Robert Fabian]

I'm in Dean's corner on this...use #6's in your first barrel. I had a friend body shoot a nice tom with 2 1/4 oz of heavy shot #4's he broke one wing and opposite leg...had to go get the Lab and when we returned couple hours latter there was quit a row before the tom was subdued...made for one of my favorite memories of my now deceased buddy though.

[Jerry Harlow]

Quote: Again I don't mean to be offensive just wondering why everyone simply HAS to use a cannon to kill a bird IF aiming at the head.

More of my 2 cents opinions. I will agree that one ounce of 6s center pattern 1200 f.p.s. plus to the head from a full choke will kill most turkeys out to 30 and maybe 35 yards. But more shot means more chance to compensate for my errors. I cannot tell you how many times I have shot only to see a turkey run off and then realize I had jerked the gun slightly or I could not remember even aiming at him, and had my head way above the stock and had just pointed in the general direction as if shooting a bird on wing. Until one learns to aim the gun as if shooting a rifle and squeeze and not jerk the trigger, you will miss a lot.

The 2 or 2.25 ounces of shot will allow for a large margin of error, and that is why they are so popular. They allow for mistakes. Having the bead a fraction of an inch to either side will make quite a difference at 30 yards. And in thick cover there is often an obstacle in your way that you do not see. I’ve shot at turkeys only to discover that a sapling that is impossible to see between you and the bird took up a large part of the pattern. And I watched them fly away.

Lastly, a three-year-old bird is far different from a hen in the fall or a jake. Like a big buck, their will to live and to get up and get away is far different than a younger animal.

You see the shells for big magnums now with blended Hevi-shot in 7, 6, 5, which is equivalent to lead 6, 5, 4. So there is agreement that these are the shot sizes to use. It is just a matter of preference and confidence in what you are shooting after patterning the gun. And each one will shoot differently with various shot sizes, and some not to point of aim. I am usually shooting a 10 when using a Parker, so I can get by with a larger shot due to a bigger payload.

The gobbler in the spring is too magnificent of a big game animal to be taken lightly. When I cripple one, which happens to every dedicated turkey hunter, I think about it for many weeks, and for longer if it is the end of the spring turkey season.
:crying:

[will evans]

Jerry,

When you wound a bird do you honestly know why you wounded him? What went wrong? The discussion I started was about using low pressure shells in a vintage gun and maintaining velocity of the pellets out to 40 yards for a proper kill, not about using cannons. Other people have expressed an opinion in other places that the low pressure loads contributed to their wounding of a bird. I don't even know that their thoughts can be proven wrong without seeing velocity data at the distance they were shooting.

I am mainly just trying to be properly prepared so that I can continue to be a responsible hunter. I wish I could find some 4's or copper plated 5's to run down the other tube of this old gun. I don't know what the pattern would look like at 40 yards, and probably won't unless someone knows of a source for 2-1/2" 16ga shells in that shot size. I do not see them offered by RST or Polywad. If I can't find an alternative to test then I guess I will be using the #6 copper shot.

[Marc Retallack]

Will, if you're choosing to hunt turkey with the gun you mentioned, you've already chosen to limit your shots. Buy the 1200fps RST's in 6s and pattern them out to 30 or 35 yds. If they CONSISTENTLY pattern well, they will kill any turkey at that distance if you place enough pellets where they're supposed to be (head and neck).

I've patterned close to a hundred different loads (factory and handloads) through a dozen different guns (12s and 16s) in the last decade in search of the perfect combo. Without fail, the high velocity/extra heavy payload shells I ran through my guns had horrible patterns. The best patterns for me have all come in the 1200-1250 fps range.

Turkey hunting is a short range game in spite of what the modern "turkey thugs" might want us to believe.

Cheers
Marcus

[Jerry Harlow]

[QUOTE=will evans;100496]

When you wound a bird do you honestly know why you wounded him? What went wrong?


Number 1. Too far. Since a mature gobbler is so big, he always looks closer than he is. My uncle used to say if one cannot see a bird's eye, he is too far. Heck, I can hardly see their heads anymore.

Number 2. Not on target, perhaps off by just an inch or two with the bead which at 30 yards out puts the center of the pattern way off. Usually jerked it off target. Shotgun triggers are not rifle triggers. When you practice and pattern, practice with your back to a tree and butt on the ground just like you will be in the woods.

Number 3. Got turkey fever and forgot to aim, believe it or not.

Number 4. Something in the way I did not see, like a sapling (these obstacles are always out there near the turkey, but not in my vision since I've looked at the turkey for a long time with both eyes open).

Number 5. Turkey moves his head at the last second and I am already in the process of pulling the trigger.

Number 6. 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 all at the same time.

Never the fault of the gun or shot size. :cuss:

Charlie C., chime in here you old turkey killer.

[Mills Morrison]

Number 7 - Plain old fashioned bad luck. The kind you get all the time while turkey hunting. This applies not only to shots, but also to the infinite number of things that can go wrong while turkey hunting.

[charlie cleveland]

im enjoying this thread very much....this is my opinion.... if a person is gonna limit is self to shooting a turkey at up to 35 yards and no further then about any 20 ga or16 will do fine for turkey with medium powered shells...no 7 1/2 shot at 35 yards or less in a full choke gun is murder on a turkeys head... the reason i use a big bore gun with a big payload is that most of them 3 an4 year old birds seem to hang up at about 45 yards. i want enough gun to bring that bird down ...i mosly hunt with the short ten ga loads but this year i will be hunting the first day with a 10 ga parker with gage mates in it for 12 ga on the right barrel a 3 inch mag no 6 in the left a 3 1/2 inchmag no 4...gonna be kinda like that song if the right one dont get ya then the left one will... i like the old 8 ga with 2 1/2 ounce loads of no 2 s and no4 s...i even hunt with a single barrel 12 ga 3 1/2 inch gun when im going a far piece... i ve hunted all my life with people that shot 20 ga and 16 ga and they killed there fair share of turkeys..and i hunted with my dad who always shot a ten ga for many years and others who shot the mag 12s... so to be honest it problem melts down to the fact who i hunted with and what ive been told and seen in turkey hunting that makes me like a magnum large ga gun for turkeys... but i guess if my father or hunting companions had taught me to shoot no turkey past 35 yards then i would be hunting with a 20 or 16 ga...this is probably why most people hunt with large or small ga guns... but me i would like to shoot a turkey with a 4 ga with a 4 ounce payload.....you can see i really like talking hunting...and ive got a 16 ga stevens layed out to use after i get the first turkey home....any way use the gun you shoot best and keep the guns to its killing range and you will bring home the turkey... charlie

[Mills Morrison]

No less of an authority than Archibald Rutledge recommended no. 2 in one barrel and no. 4 in the other barrel. For what it is worth. All of the posts on here are very helpful and go to show there is no easy answer. Rutledge shot a Parker for years and apparently bagged close to 400 turkeys in his lifetime, hunting mostly in South Carolina, Pennsylvania and West Virginia.

[charlie cleveland]

if you look on the real old shotgun shell boxes there was a chart for recommended shot size to use on game..on the box it recommends bb and no2 shot for turkeys... charlie

[Dennis V. Nix]

I just checked an old, "Winchester Shotshell Game Guide", I have had for many years and it indicates for turkey hunting with a 10 gauge to use 2 1/4 ounces of shot size 4. For a 12 gauge it indicates 1 1/4 ounces of 4, 5 or 6 shot. For a 2nd showing for a 12 gauge using Double X loads it indicates the same shot sizes of 4, 5 or 6 but a load of 1 1/2 or 1 7/8ths ounce. 16 gauge uses 1 1/4 ounce of 4 and 6. 20 gauge uses 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 ounce of 4 and 6 size shot. It really says much of what has been discussed here already. I am assuming my 3 frame 10 gauge should work just fine with RST 1 1/4 ounce load of 4, 5 or 6 size shot. The wheel is dated 1987.

Dennis

[scott kittredge]

I found that in all the 10 ga's i shot for test patterns(around 8 different guns) 1 1/2 oz 6's shot the best with 1 3/8 ths oz 6 next best, 1 5/8 ths not so well as with 1 3/4 oz. 4's next best in the same order from best to not so good, in the 12 ga. 1 1/4 6's . i shot 50 or so test rounds over the last 3 years. scott

[Mills Morrison]

Turkey reports are coming in and the most interesting. . . my cousin and her husband got attacked by a coyote while hunting in SC on Saturday. The coyote is no longer with us (fatal overdose of turkey loads), but that is one more thing to look out for. Are coyotes good for anything? Do they make good taxidermy mounts even?

[tom tutwiler]

Turkey reports are coming in and the most interesting. . . my cousin and her husband got attacked by a coyote while hunting in SC on Saturday. The coyote is no longer with us (fatal overdose of turkey loads), but that is one more thing to look out for. Are coyotes good for anything? Do they make good taxidermy mounts even?

I've been told they make great fertilizer. :)

[Thomas Garver]

I used to deer hunt at a camp near Weldon, NC several years ago. My guide shot a coyote and mounted it in a sitting position. The eyes that he used made the dog appear to be alive and staring at you. He sat him by the camp door so you had a greeter every evening.

[Jerry Harlow]

Will,

Back to your question about "misses," which ofter they are not. Hits to the head but not the "Vital Areas" often result in a bird, especially a big old one, running off to die. As you can see, only about a fourth or less of a turkey's head contains a vital area. Does not mean they won't drop like a stone if hit in the non-vital areas, but I've had many run off that I knocked down, and knew I was on target and the distance was right, much to my amazement.

Thus the saying: "One tough old bird."

You should be able to print these targets.

[Mills Morrison]

This would bolster Dean's theory of using 6 shot.

[Dean Romig]

This would bolster Dean's theory of using 6 shot.

And from a tight choke!

Thanks Mills.

[Jerry Harlow]

If it is close enough to penetrate, yes.

For longer distances, harder/bigger/heavier shot (and more of them to approximate pattern density of the 6s).

Notice the target says: "Vital Areas, Bony skull and vertebrae (Penetration will immobilize). Must penetrate. As in my bad experience, slow moving soft lead 6s at their maximum range did not. Stunned the turkey so that he was unable to get away, but did not bring him down. Extra hard or plated shot is always worth the extra money.

I asked two long time turkey hunters, both having probably killed several hundred birds apiece, now in their late 70s, what was their favorite shot.

Both shooting Belgium Browning A5s.

First one shot only 2s regardless of the distance from a 3 inch Browning A5. He swore by the fact only one pellet of number 2 was needed to bring a turkey down when hit in the neck or head.

Second one, who in his later years never went before 9 a.m. in the spring and killed his limit every year, shot a 2 3/4 inch A5 with 7 1/2 or 6, but only at 25 yards or less but never let the bird get too close (I gave him a box of Hevi-shot in 6 and he loved them).

Both used factory full chokes, non-choke-tube guns.

[ed oneal]

i recently bought an 1890 10 with damascus steel, i didn't know and have been shooting modern loads, how bad is that or is it ok? should i have a gunsmith check it out, thanks

[ed oneal]

i've heard they are good for chasing some kind of birds that run the roads, but i don't know if they ever catch em

[Dennis V. Nix]

Ed, by modern loads are you talking about 3 1/2 inch magnum shells or some older 2 7/8 inch shells. The older members of the forum can tell you much better than I can but no it is not a good idea to shoot modern loads (I am assuming the 3 1/2 inch loads in a Damascus barreled gun. A lot depends on the type of Damascus and the condition of the barrels.

Dennis

[Dean Romig]

Even more, along with the condition of the barrels, would be the frame size.

[Mills Morrison]

A lot of us use RST shells in our Damascus barreled guns. If you are new to Damascus barreled guns, you may want to have them checked out by a gunsmith who specializes in vintage guns

[Dennis V. Nix]

With due respect to all who are writing I seem to be missing something here and have to go with what Dean is saying. I haven't shot but one turkey in my life but I believe it was killed with 1 1/4 ounces of number 6 shot at about 36 yards range from a Remington 870 as I had no side by sides at the time. From what I am reading it seems that some of the writers question the use of Damascus barrels. Did nobody ever kill a turkey before the invention of fluid steel barrels. As Dean says a turkey is a thin skulled bird and the wing bones are not that big. At reasonable ranges out to 40 yards with any decent patterning shotgun and at leas number 6 shot there should be a dead turkey.

Dennis

[charlie cleveland]

dennis you are right that any decent gun will kill a turkey at 40 yards..i shoot damascus barrels the year round i ve killed a lots of turkeys with these old damascus barrels and there has always been high brass shells used in these guns even some magnum loads ..i ve used parkers lefevers colt remington and lc smith with these high brass shells for the last 50 years with no problem s..the old 10 parker 3 frame has shot several magnum 3 1/2 inch 12 ga turkey loads in it.. i think damascus barrels that are good and sound are safe as steel barrels ..the only bad thing about damacus barrels is that since bell done that test and a lot of peoiple found out they could shoot these old guns with other than fluid steel barrels is that its driven the prices of these old gun away up... charlie

[Dean Romig]

I killed my Vermont long-beard this year with a 10 gauge Damascus barreled Parker Bros. Grade 3 hammergun.

[Casey O'Connor]

:duck:That's it!!!
Lever action .22 for Turkeys under 75 yards;
Bolt action .222 for Turkeys over 75 yards;

Both pattern very well and are quite deadly for well placed head shots.

:biglaugh::duck:

[charlie cleveland]

we ca not use rifles for turkey anymore in mississippi.. charlie

[Casey O'Connor]

Can't use them anymore in Arkansas either. I was just trying to toss in a little humor.

[Mills Morrison]

. . . or Georgia either, although it used to be done. Henry Davis, author of the classic book American Wild Turkey used rifles a lot for turkey hunting

[charlie cleveland]

i too have used rifles for turkey hunting a while back.. not as easy to get a turkey with a rifle as you would think it would be..they get educated very quick... charlie

[Mills Morrison]

My PH 12 gauge has chokes so tight it might as well be a rifle.

[charlie cleveland]

mills i mite have to borrow that gun some day...ha charlie