Pierced primer

[Robin Lewis]

I have a Parker hammer gun that I have shot many times but on two or three occasions I found the spent shell's primers had a hole in them as I extracted them.

What would cause a primer to be pierced AND what are the effects and dangers? Is it the shells or the gun?

[Paul Harm]

It's the gun or primers. Some claim the Chedditte primers will do that. Or, one of your firing pins are a bit too long or too pointed. I see it off and on and don't think there's any danger.

[Dave Suponski]

I agree with Paul. I have only seen this happen with Cheddite primers. That isn't to say it couldn't happen with other brands. Rob, Check the nose of the firing pins. Sometimes just stoning and polishing them a bit solves the problem.

[John Dallas]

Isn't the pierced hole a route for blowback? (Make sure you're wearing your glasses)

[Richard Flanders]

I get pierced primers - any brand - mostly with hammer guns that have strong main springs and longer than most firing pins. I think that primers used to be a fair bit thicker and tougher. I get a bit of blowback and am careful to clean the firing pins.

[John Farrell]

If you're using your own reloads, try seating your primers a little deeper in the base of the shell if you have an adjustable seating depth reloader. You'll be moving the primer further away from the "too long" firing hammer or pin. Of course, when you start using a primer with a thicker primer cup body, you will not have the striker force sufficient to get good ignition (maybe).

[John Campbell]

Bindle:
Firing pin tips should be hemispherical and protrude no further than .050 from the breech face. With this correct and good primers, the problem should go away. But... every pierced primer allows gas and carbon back into the action and stock cuts. Too much is never good for either.

Best, Kensal

[Gary Carmichael Sr]

Kensal, Is .050 for all types of firing pins, straight and the offset pins. Gary

[John Campbell]

Gary:
As a general rule, yes. Many are a tad shorter and work just fine though.

Best, Kensal

[Rob Wright]

I am still in shock and mourning; a pierced Cheddite Primer and associated blowback blew apart the head of my Parker VHE stock this morning. Shell was a reload (mine) and can't help but think it was my own error, but I can't see anything wrong with the spent casing other than the primer is pierced, although perhaps the hull is expanded slightly more than other cases. Case looks clean with no signs of excess pressure, primer was fully seated, crimp looked normal, etc. All I know is that my beautiful 1929 gun is in sad shape. Sign.

[Robin Lewis]

Rob,

Sorry to see this, I hope you didn't suffer any injury. If you managed to find all the parts, large and small, save them. There are talented stockers out there that can put it back together so well that you will need to look hard to find any repair.

[Daryl Corona]

Rob, first the good news. Your stock looks like it can be repaired and you won't even see the repair. You mentioned that the hull is expanded a bit more than the others. What recipe were you loading? A pierced primer coupled with high pressure could certainly cause that damage.

[Brian Dudley]

I have had a couple of punctured primers with a hammer gun of mine. I just worked the pins some until it stopped happening. But other than a little black on the primer from the puncture, I never noticed any gasses blowing out of the firing pin bushings or no damage. Hard to imagine that just a blown out primer would damage the head of a stock like that.

To the other extreme, I had a few misfires with Fiocchi primers the other day. Been using them a lot and not had these issues before with light hits or misfires. One of the guns it happened on was my 1874 lifter. The pin imprint was like an impact crater and the shell didn't go off! It did the second time though.

[Kevin McCormack]

Depends a lot on the brand of primer, too: this morning shooting SCs, one of my pals' Gastine Rennett gave him trouble the whole course. He was using Fiocchi factory ammo and the firing pins 'bit' enough into the primers that he had trouble opening the gun almost every station. Apparently the primer compound & resultant goo after detonation holds the firing pins like thick taffy and won't allow them to fully rebound. Said he never has this problem with other factory loads like Win AA, Remington, Federal., etc. Also, excellent advice from the Robin and Daryl - find and keep ALL the wood fragments - your gunstock can be repaired!

[John Campbell]

A sad result to say the least. But stock repair can be done. What you need to do is TOSS those Cheddite primers. I've had a LOT of pierced primers with them, and the lot I have has VERY oversize battery cups. I only bought a brick, but won't fire any more.

I have my own opinions of the French...

Fiocchis are fine. Even if you have to hit a few twice. They don't pierce.

As for the pressure that destroyed you stock, I'd look at the load. A double charge? Heavier than normal charge? Either, along with a pierced primer made by Cheddite would allow the disaster.

I'd be glad your hand and eyes were safe.

[Morris Davis]

A pierced primer is sign that some thing is wrong stop shooting until you know whats not right

[Dean Romig]

Rob, all is not lost. That stock head can be easily repaired. Send it to a pro. and you'll never see the evidence of the break.

[Richard B. Hoover]

I have a Parker hammer gun that I have shot many times but on two or three occasions I found the spent shell's primers had a hole in them as I extracted them.

What would cause a primer to be pierced AND what are the effects and dangers? Is it the shells or the gun?

I would be suspicious that the Cheddite Primers may be the problem. I have never had a pierced Primer with a CCI or a Winchester 209 reload. This could be dangerous.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Does anyone know if Cheddite primers are used in any of the cheaper Factory loaded shells --- Rio, Estate, or others?

[Brian Dudley]

I know that RST and RIO use Cheddite hulls. Don't know about primers.

[Rob Wright]

I was using 17g. 700X powder, 1 1/8 oz load in Win AA hulls. It's certainly not impossible that there was a double charge - I'm new to reloading shot shells (have reloaded pistol and rifle for many years) but I'm pretty meticulous. So, no real way of knowing, and I'm pretty nervous about shooting any more of my own loads. Think I'm going to shoot my Benelli SBE for a while, it will digest just about anything.

I [I]am very[I] grateful that my eyes, face and hands were all unscathed - money is just money - but sad that the gun was so damaged. Also very grateful to the kind contributors here, and to my mates at my gun club. They all stopped shooting and helped me find all but two small pieces of the stock (some of which were 30' away from station one), which Brian Dudley says he can repair. I'll post back pictures of the restored gun. Thanks to you all.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Rob,

What kind of reloader are you using? I use a Mec Grabber. I can not think of a way I could even get a double load of powder. I think the primer is at fault rather than your load. I would steer clear of those primers. You are very lucky you were not severely hurt. Apparently others have had problems with those primers.

[John Campbell]

The issue with Cheddite primers seems to be centered on two areas: Thickness of the metal in the actual cap, and our application of these primers to classic guns. i.e.:

The cap metal is thinner than any other primer I've tried.

The guns that we shoot are old and equipped with firing pins that are the proper length and tip shape for ammunition that is no longer made. This old ammo had primers seated deeper than today's cartridges, hence a longer protrusion was necessary. Also, some older firing pin tips are more conical than rounded.

Add all of this together and you get a "draw" on the cap that it cannot withstand. It will often pierce. Especially under pressure.

Cheddites might be fine in your Remington 1100 or K-80. They are not so good in a Parker hammer gun.

[Richard B. Hoover]

John,

Thanks for the info. Can you tell us which factory shells probably have these primers?

The thin metal in the cheap cheddite primer is probably the culprit. I have never had this happen with a Win or CCI primer. Rob has shown that a pierced primer can result in disaster. With the extreme rise in the cost of shot and powder I am reloading less and buying factory shells more. I would not want to take a chance with these primers in even an 1100. Only a small splinter of a stock can take out an eye.

[John Campbell]

Richard:
I really can't tell you which makers may use Cheddite. I do know they are made in France.

With that knowledge, and the fact that Fiocchi and Nobel primers are made in Italy, I would feel reasonably safe in assuming (always a risky thing) that Italian-made cartridges are made with Italian primers.

I have not had any pierced primers with either Fiocchi or Nobel brands personally.

And... if you surf some of the other shotgun boards, you'll find the Cheddite pierced primer syndrome is not uncommon.

[Paul Harm]

I've been using Cheddites for 2 or 3 years. At one time I was loading 30 to 40 boxes a week for myself, wife, daughter, and granddaughter using Cheddites. The only time I noticed a pierced primer is with my Parker hammer gun, and only the right barrel. The two Lifters never did it, three Remington hammer guns don't, two Parker hammerless don't, and three Remington hammerless don't. None of the modern shotguns the wife or daughters don't. For this reason I'm lead to believe it's more of a firing pin problem. I suppose you could get a double charge if something was blocking the the drop tube. I had a primer stuck in a Mec drop tube. Must have been a loose one in a empty shell. Wonder why your shell base was bigger than others? I would think that's a sign of too much pressure.

[Dennis V. Nix]

LiveFreeNH,

That is a shame and the gun looks absolutely beautiful except for the damage. Perhaps the wood can be made right again. One major concern I have is, how are YOU. If you are right handed that was pretty darn close. Are you OK?

Dennis

[Richard Flanders]

It's my impression from reading up on the RIO company that they make their own primers. I know I buy Rio primers to reload my Rio hulls.

[Daryl Corona]

I have to agree with Paul. I've loaded and shot close to 10k Cheddite primers in all my Parkers, hammerless and hammer and in all gauges and really can't remember one pierced primer. Maybe I was just lucky. I also got 10k or so for Ed Blake so maybe he can chime in with his experience with Cheddites.

[Chuck Bishop]

I can't ever recall a pierced primer, I use primarily Federal 209a's, and a few Remington 209's. I bought a few RST's and noticed a few pierced primers but I don't remember if it was on a hammerless or hammer gun.

[Richard B. Hoover]

I have used Win, CCI, Federal and Remington primers and never experienced a pierced primer. The first time I heard about this problem was in this thread. Has anyone seen this problem with these more expensive primers in a Parker? Does this problem also occur with the Nobel primers that are also fairly low in cost?

[Richard Flanders]

I've pierced a number of primers before, just can't remember if it was old ammo or my reloads. Seems I figured out at some point that the older primers were made of much heavier metal so the older guns had either longer firing pins or heavier springs. My guns that really dent the primers are hammer guns with very rounded tips, which I figured were made that way so they would get reliable ignition with the older heavier primers so they really deform the newer thinner cups. Anyone else notice that? My old Remington hammer gun REALLY puts a big round dent in any and all primers, old or new. I guess I should dismantle some old and new primers and take a caliper to them. It wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the piercings are caused by irregularities in the primer cups. Those things must be punch formed and subject to having a thin spot now and then.

[Richard B. Hoover]

Richard,

I do not think it is just due to the firing pins. I just read the reviews on cheddite primers at Ballistic Products and there are comments there about pierced primers---from users that are probably not shooting hammer guns. Even more concerning is that the Cheddite, Fiocchi and Rio 209 primers have a diameter of 0.242". The CCI, Win, Fed, Rem, etc. 209 primers are 0,241" diameter. This means that these cheaper primers stretch the diameter of the primer cup. This means that when you start using Cheddite, Rio, or Fiocchi primers you have to stitch with them or risk having your CCI or Win primer falling out or blown out on ignition!!! Even though they are cheaper---I would not risk using them in any fine gun.

[Paul Harm]

Rich, when I first started using Cheddites I went back and forth from Win and the Cheddites and never had a loose primer. Bet I've gone through 30,000 of them.

[Richard Flanders]

Look at the firing pins on the 14ga lifter that someone just posted pics of. They stick out FAR more than any I've ever seen and they're really rounded vs being a tad pointy like some. Those things would stretch the bejeezus out of any primer cup.