10ga loads ?

[Paul Harm]

I'm useing SB loads - 18grs of 700X, Rem wad, and 1oz of shot. They have an allful lot of recoil. My Parker 10 isn't that light, I"d say 8 pounds or so. It wants to come out of my left hand and the shoulder after 50 shots feels it. Any suggestion ? I checked 3 different shells - all the same, and in spects. Paul

[charlie cleveland]

paul are you roll crimping or useing 6 or 8 point crimping....the powder charge and shot you are using should be light on the shoulder...powder may have changed strenth qualitys from some reason...if you are roll crimping i cant think of any thing other than the change of strentg of powder... charlie

[Pete Lester]

A 1 ounce load in an 8 pound gun should be soft in recoil and not recoiling out of one's left hand. Something would seem to be "wrong". All I can think of is wrong powder type, too much of a powder charge or more than 1 ounce of shot. You say everything is in spec. Triple check amount of shot thrown, the amount of powder thrown, and powder type in machine. Then try a different lot of 700-X. If all else fails try a different powder, not in any book anywhere but 22 grains of Green Dot has been working fine for me with 1 1/8 ounce.

[Mark Ouellette]

Hi Paul,

A very sharp (short in length) forcing cone and/or short chambers could cause higher "felt" recoil.

Mark

[Paul Harm]

I'm going to recheck the chamber length - thougth mine were 2 5/8. I've cut all shells for that. I'll check bore dia. also. My chambers have a step - no forcing cone. I tried a shell with fiber wads last night - that was ok. Also one with 28grs of 800X - not bad but barrels were really dirty - incomplete burn. It seems to have something to do with the plastic wads. You think the old girl knows plastic wasn't invented yet and shouldn't be shot through her barrels ? Paul

[Pete Lester]

I still think there is something odd about this. A 1 ounce load using 18gr of 700-X is generating 1096fps and 5600 psi according to SB's loading data. That is a very tame load creating a mere 12ft lbs of recoil in an 8 pound gun.

[charlie cleveland]

yep some things not been seen in the light here...but im sure you will figure it out paul...pete about covvered all the bases... charlie

[Paul Harm]

Not quite all the basics. Bear with me. A 12ga bore should be .729 - many of our old SxS's are bigger - up to .740 or so. Going with the .729 - my 12ga plastic wads measure .702. With a full choke at .030, that means a couple of thous smaller than the wad. My 10 measures .750 at the muzzle. The Remington 10ga wads measure .760 - except at the part were the fingers and the cushion meet. For some reason just above the cushion it measures .780 to .790. None of my 12ga wads get bigger. I tried to push a wad down the barrel and it was very tight at the choke area. That's what got me measuring the wad a bit more closely. So then I put my trigger gauge on the ramrod. It took 4 to 6 pounds of pressure to push the wad down the barrel. At the choke area the gauge bottomed out at 16 pounds. Don't know what total it took to push it through. I would think with a load of shot in the wad it would be at least the 780 to 790 or more. I believe the heavy recoil is because the wad is too tight. Shooting paper wads and the recoil is mild. Even shooting 84 grs of BP and 1 1/8 oz loads with paper wads are better. It should be more than my 700X loads because recoil is based on the weight of powder, wad, and shot. Oh, it's a 9# gun, not 8. Does anyone else have recoil problem using Remington 10ga wads ? Paul

[Mark Ouellette]

Paul,

Yes, but only in guns with sharp forcing cones.

Mark

[Paul Harm]

I didn't really want to go to the paper wads because it takes so many with nitro loads. I need over an inch of cushion wads with 1 1/8 oz loads - and that's in 2 5/8 " shells. Paul

[Pete Lester]

Most 10's will be around .750 at the choke/muzzle, take a .785 bore on average with 30 to 35 thou of choke will get you there. The wad is plastic under great force, it's going to give rather easily. Again a 1 ounce load at that velocity is incredibly tame and it should not be causing the gun as you say to be jumping out of your left hand and make you sore after 50 shots, especially at 9 lb weight of gun which brings it down to 10.71 ft lbs of recoil. That's about the same as a 243 Winchester. I think it's safe to say it's not because the wad is too thick for the choke or many of us would be experiencing the same problem.

[Paul Harm]

Just shot two shells with 19.4grs of 700X, paper wads, and 1 1/16oz of shot - felt nice. I know the 19.4 is a little high for the SB loads, but his weren't with paper wads so I went up about 10% - should be safe. Bores were a bit dirty - maybe a 1 1/8 of shot and/or a bit more powder. Paul

[Paul Harm]

I'm at a loss to explain it. A 12ga wad is even harder to push through a full choke gun. I still think it has something to do with the wads. When I open a shell, dump the shot, and then try to pull the wad out I either can't or it's so hard I ruin the wad. Not so with my 12ga shells when I goof something up and take them apart. My gauge bore won't open up enough to check the 10ga shell internal diameter and my shorter dial gauge that will is over to the club. I'll get it and check the shells ID. I'm about ready to pull the shot out of 100 shells and shoot the wads out and start over. I blew up a 1889 Remington by loading 94grs of PB when I thought I was loading Pyrodex - I kind of know all about the signs of too much pressure. Graig from Circlefly doesn't like 700X for low pressure 10ga loads. Someone told me he has a pressure testing machine and he got spikes in pressure using 700x. Not sure if it's true - maybe call him and ask. Paul

[Paul Harm]

Ok, talked to Craig. He doesn't have a pressure machine - sends his testing to Tom Amhurst. Didn't know anything about 700X. What he uses is 7625 [ 38 Mec bushing ], Rem wad with a FIBER wad cut to about 1/4" inside the plastic wad for filler and 1 3/16 oz of shot. 6100psi at 1200fps. Tom told him the fiber cushion wad was better that a hard card. It lowered pressure and stopped pressure spikes. Said it was one of the best loads he had ever tested. Also said paper instead of plastic wads doesn't mean you can go up 10% with all powders - just some and didn't which ones. So I guess I'll just dump the shot and shoot the wads out of 100 shells to be on the safe side. Buy me some 7625. It's been a learning process. Paul

[Paul Harm]

Craig said he was using the Rem wad and hull so there goes that idea also. Paul

[scott kittredge]

hi paul, i shoot the same load out of my 2 frame gun at 8 3/4 lbs and the loads are just fine, you should be able to hold the gun with one hand with out dropping it. out of my 9 lb gun its is nothen. something does seem wrong with the load if it jumps that much. 700-x should have little flakes of yellow in it. does yours? keep us posted. scott

[Dave Purnell]

Paul, I had the same problem with a 2 5/8 chamber 10ga. It wanted to jump right out of my hands. It was really tough to hold on to. At the time I could only find Sherman Bell's loads. His hunting load made the bad recoil. I just switched to his target load at 4800 psi and it worked fine. Like BIG Friend Ten said, it had something to do with the sharp step at the end of the chamber. For lowest pressure loads, it was okay. I've since sold the gun.

Dave

[Paul Harm]

It was 700x - I've ben shooting it for quite a while in my 12ga. I'll get a pound of 7625 and try it. I had even tried reduceing the shot to 1oz counting the 16 wad. No help. I really like the gun - hate to sell it. Paul

[Mark Ouellette]

Forcing cones...

[Paul Harm]

Dave, I wouldn't rule out the step at the end of the chambers. I've cut all my shells to fit the chambers so that shouldn't be a problem. The step in my gun is very small - I'd have to guess it was intended for brass shells. I believe some call a gun with chambers/step a " chamberless gun ". There are no forcing cones. The bore is the same size as the inside of the shell. It would seem to me there'd be less recoil. But then again I could be wrong and there's something else to guns with stepped chambers causeing more recoil. Paul

[scott kittredge]

Dave, I wouldn't rule out the step at the end of the chambers. I've cut all my shells to fit the chambers so that shouldn't be a problem. The step in my gun is very small - I'd have to guess it was intended for brass shells. I believe some call a gun with chambers/step a " chamberless gun ". There are no forcing cones. The bore is the same size as the inside of the shell. It would seem to me there'd be less recoil. But then again I could be wrong and there's something else to guns with stepped chambers causeing more recoil. Paul

hi, all 3 of my 10's have stepped chambers, i find them very ez on the shoulder when i am shooting. much better than a 12 ga. with a 1 1/8th oz load. some thing just does not seem wright if it kicks like you said it does. please keep us posted. scott

[Paul Harm]

Finally remembered to bring home my other dial indicator - it only reaches in 5". The step is .020 - a couple of brass 10ga shells measure .010 wall thickness with a .800 ID. Far as I can tell the bores are .800 . So it should be a smooth transition from shell to bore. The plastic wads are just under .800. I just don't know - it doesn't make sense. A friend has some 7625 - try a couple of shells with it. Paul

[Paul Harm]

I just tried some loads with 28grs of 7625, Rem wads + 1/4" filler wad, and 1oz of shot. Clean barrels and acceptable recoil. Here's something I can shoot. Paul

[Pete Lester]

I just tried some loads with 28grs of 7625, Rem wads + 1/4" filler wad, and 1oz of shot. Clean barrels and acceptable recoil. Here's something I can shoot. Paul

If this load is comfortable to shoot then the forcing cones were not the problem as they would effect every load. Something was amiss and it's good you stopped and adjusted.

[Paul Harm]

Amen to that - although there are no forcing cones. Thinking about it, it would seem that the stepped chambers would be the cats meow. Some promote longer forcing cones and with stepped chambers there aren't any at all. :) Don't get much better. Paul

[Pete Lester]

The cat's meow is probably the other direction. An English gun I saw this year at a Vintagers shoot, a 10 bore with 12ga chambers. No limit on shell length. Nothing being forced. Seemed to shoot real tight too.

[Daryl Corona]

I have a Wm. Ford 20ga. hammer. Built on the "Heath chamberless system". Barrels have 20ga. chambers, 16ga. bore and 18ga. chokes. It is so stamped on the underside of the barrels. No forcing cones, extremely mild recoil and F/F chokes. It ain't a 10 but the principle is the same. These Brits figured this out over 130yrs. ago and if I ever have a gun sleeved again this is what I will have done.

[charlie cleveland]

that is one serious 20 ga gun...how do figure that a 20 ga gun with 18 ga bore is full choke...i m not making fun i just dont understand...can some one explain please.... charlie

[Daryl Corona]

Charlie;
The reduction in bore diameter is what gives this gun a full choke. A 16ga. bore is .662, an 18ga. is .637. The difference is .025 which is a fullchoke in a 20ga. The same principle applies to any gauge. Take the 12 ga. for example. Nominal bore dia.= .729, a constriction of .036 would give you a diameter for the choke of .693 which is the diameter for a 14ga. The Wm. Ford 20ga. chokes are parallel for the entire length of the choke (3.75").
Hope this helps.
Daryl

[Paul Harm]

I ended up not liking the loads with 30grs of 7625. So I did some test loads - 20, 22, 24, 26, and 28grs. The 20 and 22 were mild and the 24 wasn't bad. No to the 26 and 28. Did another two loads with 22.5grs and 1oz and 1 1/8. Funny, the 1 1/8 felt better than the 1oz. Gonna load a couple with 1oz and a couple with 1 1/8oz to see how they break clay birds and check for recoil. Back when I loaded 1oz in the 12ga the loads were mild, so why not in a 10ga ? This is really bugging me - shouldn't be any recoil with the 1oz in a 9# gun be it 10 or 12. Paul

[Paul Harm]

Got checking some of my other Parkers. I have a lifter 12ga built in 1875 with 2 5/8 chambers and no step. But the barrels do tighten very very quickly. Maybe someone at some time ground the step out. My 10 giving me so much trouble was built in 1879 with the step at 2 5/8. A 12ga top lever hammergun built in 1908 has a step at 2 7/8. I find the last one interesting with a step at 2 7/8.

[Dave Purnell]

Paul, I'm wishing I still had my problem 10ga to check further, but I did find my notes of that gun. It was an Underlifter, #6128, made in 1875, 0 grade, 30" Twist, 2 5/8" chamber with step, 9 pound, 2 frame, choked IM both barrels.

Dave

[Paul Harm]

Been in a slump lately - about 10 birds down. So I shot my #4402 lifter 12ga with 30" twist barrels and straight grip. Shot better - that gun always seemed to fit, feel, and handle so nice. I had redone the wood and Brad redid the barrels. It just may be my new favirote gun.